Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 4

Bollox. The war would have started much earlier with Trump in power. It was Biden who had warned Russians against waging a war and in result they delayed the invasion for too long, to the great detriment of their armies.


You mean that Orange Clown??? :):):) Come on, you are 80 but speak like a kindergarten kid.

Ex-Polish FM names two major Ukrainian problems
The country's elites have been mired in corruption while harboring geopolitical delusions, Radoslaw Sikorski has claimed

Another major reason Ukraine had become something of an economic backwater, however, is rampant corruption. According to Transparency International's Corruption Perception index, Ukraine ranked 122 out of 180 countries globally as of 2021.

A model country every Pole should dream about dying for and every American to dump more money into it. I wonder where Poland and the US rank on the stupid scale.

Exactly Polish rightist PiS! Nothing new.

And? Do you really think it will discourage us from supporting Ukraine? Are you crazy?

@Novichok

Yeah, but UK ranked 11, Poland 42 and more importantly Russia ranked 136!I
You just shot yourself in the foot Rich....don't play with guns mate!

Yes, yes... And be abandoned somewhere in Bakhmut with cut heads and hands because there was no chances to evacuate bodies due to fierce fights. But... Forgotten phones and some electronic data storage found hidden under clothes on bodies shown that this was Poles and Israelites...

t.me/OstashkoNews/52106


Surprised that not 181 out of 180. ;) TI writes their reports to order. ;)

No, I didn't. I never said Russia is pure as the driven snow.
My point for the umpteenth time is that Ukraine is a sh*it hole not worth dying for or dumping money we don't have on or risking a war with Russia over. Their corruption is another matter and outside of my interest as a US taxpayer.

This war would have never started under Trump. Putan simply couldn't have afforded to do so until Biden opened the spicket for him and closed ours. Moron.


Why are we giving away our stockpiles when a war with the commie chicks is looming?

Bidens woke Army wont win and nobody is joining either execpt trannies for free sex changes. Biden is traitor.

Just keep telling yourself that. The war would have started no matter who was president, since it was inevitable from Putins imperial point of view. If anything Trump would have encouraged Putin in his belief that no strong Western response would follow.

And going by his own rhetoric, Trump would have never given Ukraine the military support it received under Biden. The day Biden won the election was a very fortunate day indeed for the USA and Ukraine.

The prospect in the case of an Ukrainian victory of Biden receiving credit for one of the greatest American foreign political successes since 1945 may irritate to you, but that is no reason to cling to fantasies.

@Tacitus
I agree that when this is over, Biden will get a lot of credit for how he handled it, and he should. His advisers are doing a really good job and the intelligence community has done an excellent job at predicting, and anticipating Putin's next moves.

But I also have to agree with Joker. Trump, as much as I don't like him, would have kept Putin at bey. Even the US leaving NATO, which would have happened, wouldn't have allowed Putin to feel safe doing this with Trump in office. Why? Because Trump is/was unpredictable. Trump scared half of the American people, and most people around the western world because he was unpredictable. While the Ukraine issue lead to impeachment, Trump was never a pu$$y. I also believe Trump would have forced Ukraine to make a deal with Vlad and give up Crimea to avoid this war. But we will never know now.

Now there are reports that some Chechen's are fighting on the side of Ukraine. Funny how every ethnic group and nationality that has been oppressed by Russia at some point or another is fighting against Russia. The only group not fighting against Russia is Russians who are simply to stupid or scared to realize no one else wants their way of living. Happy gulag biatches!

Seriously?

I would had pegged him rather doing secret phone calls assuring Putin that the West will stay out of "it"....reassuring his voters not to spend good american money again on stupid foreigners/european squabbles etc pp.

better than russia! (always second rate craphole of a country)


whereas "dicatorship" and "empire" are far better?

what feature of dictatorship and empire is worth getting 125,000 russians killed for?

@Bratwurst Boy
Trump, while I think he is an idiot, had some kind of relationship with Putin. And Trump loves the spotlight more than any other President has. He would have wanted to look like the deal maker, a real estate deal for Crimea. Ukraine would have gotten some of the aid Trump held back, and Putin would have gotten Crimea and maybe a slice of Ukraine for a "land bridge".

Like I said, I am no Trump fan. But the guy did keep Putin, Xi and every other turd world leader guessing. No one knew if there was going to be new tariffs on imports, or if the MAGA mentality would by extension eliminate more US corporate expansion in those countries. While Putin and Xi publicly do not want western interference in their countries, neither of them want to deny their people those western goods and fast food that they are addicted to. It causes people to actually start looking at how fvcked up their country is when they don't have these distractions. This is exactly why Putin moved so quickly to reopen the McDonalds properties under new branding.

I also think though that if a deal couldn't have been made, that if Putin invaded, Trump would have blown a mental gasket and would have destroyed the Black Sea Fleet within the first few days, or something along those lines. His ego would not have allowed for him to be upstaged or look as though he failed. He was not afraid to burn everything down and start over on January 6th, so that mental makeup would have come into play with Putin. Just my opinion.

Wow....Putin wouldn't had stopped with Crimea, he want's to reinstate the Sovietunion! Does that mean Trump would had been actually better for Ukraine and it's western support in the long run? As in more support much faster, more direct involvement of the US?

How would NATO contain that....

@Bratwurst Boy
I am not trying to predict what Putin would have done. Trump would have left NATO had he been re-elected. He said that publicly and the rest of NATO was nervous because of it. I do not think any deal made by Trump would have been better for Ukraine, but it would have avoided this war for at least another four years. It would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives. Again, not saying Trump would have even wanted to do it, but his ego wouldn't have allowed him to let the opportunity be passed up to be the hero or peacemaker.

Like most, I am shocked at Biden's conviction to help Ukraine. I would have never believed he would act this way if we were talking about this during the election cycle. Dems are usually doves in these matters. I think it is ignoring the obvious personality traits of Trump to say he wouldn't have controlled things a little better. And I think Putin waited specifically for Biden to be in office and to see how he handled things before he invaded. The problem for Putin is none of us could have predicted Bidens response.

....interesting! That could really have been the case! But what a nasty surprise for Putin who surely thought that would all be over after 6 weeks....with an old man in the White House nodding it all out.

Oh, you little dirty demagogue... This is some sick and twisted logic worthy of a perpetrator of domestic abuse. Helping victims to defend themselves against an armed attack by arming them too isn't "escalating". RuSSia escalated this conflict by invading Ukraine and going for Kyiv. You got your asses whooped and now you're whining that Ukraine didn't just roll over for you :)))


And sh1thole RuSSia is worth dying for?? :D It looks like Velund and Bobko think it isn't worth it :)))


Because:
1. RuSSia has far many nukes than China does (so it is a more serious threat to the US).
2. If there's a war with China, RuSSia is likely to side with China. So, the weaker RuSSia gets due to the war in Ukraine, the better.

@PolAmKrakow

While we can't know for certain what Trump would have done, I would argue that your scenario does not align with Trumps' actual policies and his later statements.

We know that Trump
- was dismissive of Ukraine and tried to blackmail it to provide it with dirt on Biden in exchange for military aid
- wanted to leave NATO, let the Europeans handle things and generally avoid getting dragged into new conflict
- had great sympathy for strongmen like Putin
- was easily manipulated by them due to his vanity and habded them great successes on the diplomatic stage (e.g North Korea or his various meetings with Putin).

Not to mention what he has said since then about his hypthetical actions.

Based on all of that it seems pretty clear what what would have happened if Trump had been in charge:

-The USA would have left NATO
-Putin would have called him and after some flattery Trump would have told him that the Europeans were on their own and did not deserve American help

- Emboldended by this Putin would have invaded
- Trump would not have dreamed of offering significant aid to Ukraine when he was already complaining about "freeloading" Europeans. It was not an American problem and the Europeans were reaping the results of their actions. The same man who made a great deal of his planned withdrawel from Afghanistan would hardly have been willing to step up elsewhere.

@Tacitus
You very well may be right. I agree he would have left NATO without question. I agree he wanted the dirt on Biden in Ukraine, and I personally believe there probably is quite a bit of it concerning young Biden. I am just looking at Trumps personality and his "deal making" is what he is known for. The deal would have probably only held things off four years. But by then the deal would have been accepted by almost everyone.

Putin would have gotten a lot out of the deal outside of Ukraine too. Think about Nord Stream 2 now being open, NS1 still pumping, and the EU relying on Russia more and more. Long term he could have set up the entire EU to rely on Russia for nearly everything. The US out of NATO would have been a big get for him too. While all of this is speculation, I think we would all be mistaken to at least not think about what could have been, and what if Trump does actually win the next election? Think about that for a few minutes. Imagine, and I hope it doesn't happen, but just imagine if he wins.

Interesting stuff on generalsvr today (usual caveats)

russia is dependent on Iran for weapons

putain is dependent on Israel for cancer meds

Israel made it clear - no more meds unless you give us some info on Iran

????

Attacks on Iranin military....

hmmmmm

twitter.com/generalsvr_en/status/1620009349073735680

Will somebody please reveal what freedoms Ukrainians in Crimea lost when Russia took over? Just name them like 1....2...3.... No essays or adjectives.

*sigh* 🙄

@Novichok, Google is your friend:

freedomhouse.org/country/crimea/freedom-world/2021

don't encourage him, you can tell him and he just pretends you didn't write anything and repeats the question.... bad faith poster.... as second rate and sad as his beloved rossija...

commentry from RT (with the usual caveats) but they mainly quote from Rand.

Is Rand Corporation still the go to consulting firm for US goverment or are they living off past glories? Does this explain General Milley statements about Ukraine can't win military and it will end in negotiations? He is head of joint chief of staff for those reading twitter conspiracies.

"The authors argue that, in addition to minimizing the risks of major escalation, U.S. interests would be best served by avoiding a protracted conflict. The costs and risks of a long war in Ukraine are significant and outweigh the possible benefits of such a trajectory for the United States."

rt.com/news/570618-rand-came-up-with-solution/
rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PEA2510-1.html

Rand report well worth a read "Some analysts make the case that the war is heading toward an outcome that would benefit the United States and Ukraine. Ukraine had battlefield momentum as of December 2022 and could conceivably fight until it succeeds in pushing the Russian military out of the country. Proponents of this view argue that the risks of Russian nuclear use or a war with the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) will remain manageable. Once it is forced out of Ukraine, a chastened Russia would have little choice but to leave its neighbour in peace-and even pay reparations for the damage it caused. However, studies of past conflicts and a close look at the course of this one suggest that this optimistic scenario is improbable."

That would be very safe bet.
This war did not just happen.
It started in 2014 and there has been a very quiet build up for war with Russia.
I think we all saw it coming for the last ten years now.
It will not end with a peaceful solution.
Why my leaders allow my country to get sucked into this mess, besides greed, is very upsetting.
The only way it could be worse is if I lived in Warsaw, London or Berlin.

Warsaw is a great, liveable city.


the only "peace" russia will accept is restablishment of the USSR, Warsaw Pact and eventual expansion into the rest of Europe. They say this openly and consistently. Unless you want to turn all of Europe into USSR 2: Electric Boogaloo then... it's worth stopping russia now.

@Paulina

*sigh* That website does not answer my question:

What freedoms Ukrainians in Crimea lost when Russia took over?


I have read many stupid posts here. This one takes the cake. Nothing more moronic was ever posted on PF since its creation.

Your fave style, isn`t it??? :):):) We asked you the same question two dozen times without effect.

(livable)
You missed my point that Warsaw, London and Berlin with be priority targets when the nukes start fkying.
Do you deny that ?


At who's expense ?
I told you that a poll was just taken and the majority of America want military aid stopped immediately to Ukraine.
Humanitarian aid o.k. but no jets, no long-range missiles and certainly no U.S. boots on the ground in Ukraine.
\ENOUGH !
Time for Europe to step up and start sacrificing like America has with our tax money and military resources.
Europe has got to quit depending on the U.S. to fight their battles for them.

In the real war today, not the hypothetical question war, Wagner troops are getting close to being completely wiped out. Russian paratroopers have now replaced the Wagner soldiers around Bakhmut.

In other news, Wagner and Russian soldeirs are being refused service at some hospitals because of high rates of aids infections, std's and drug addiction. Nothing says pride like an army full of aids patients! LMFAO