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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 8



Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #61

@Bobko, how's that homework going??

We were never forced or even asked to participate in the May 1 parades.

You write a lot of bullsh1t, either consciously, or out of ignorance. Participation in May 1 parades was obligatory for kids at school (and not only for them). In practice, however, it depended on the teacher's or your boss' views - if the teacher/boss didn't support PZPR, he or she wouldn't check the list of attendance and there would be no consequences.

There was no indoctrination of any kind in the high school.

Now you're simply lying:

historia.org.pl/2014/03/16/propaganda-w-podrecznikach-szkolnych-w-latach-1944-1948/

polskieradio.pl/39/248/artykul/891507,zmp-bylo-dla-wladzy-prl-doskonalym-narzedziem-indoktrynacji-mlodych

radiogdansk.pl/audycje/gosc-dnia/2023/01/09/co-wiemy-o-szkolnictwie-w-czasach-prl-historycy-dzis-mozemy-spojrzec-na-tamten-okres-inaczej/

The USSR used a small area in Poland to station 300,000 troops

"Small area"? lol:

Sovietoccupation

to offset the US Army in West Germany.

That's what they were telling you at school when you were a kid and on TV and in newspapers in "the Polish People's Republic". They failed, however, to tell you about another reason. You got indoctrinated. And that another reason was:

"In reality the Soviet garrisons were an armed support of the Iron Curtain which separated the countries of Central-Eastern Europe from the Western world. They were used in order to influence the policies of the governments and in 1968 the soldiers of PGW (Northern Group of Forces) were sent as part of the "Operation Danube" to pacify Czechoslovakia."

Source:

atlas2022.uw.edu.pl/mapa-tygodnia-okupacja-sowiecka-po-1956/

Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #62

Russia was by far Ukraine's largest trade partner.

Oh, I'm sure RuSSia is also the largest trade partner of Belarus. And Belarus is such a "success" story all around, isn't it ;D Now, why oh why wouldn't Ukraine want to share the fate of Belarus? Any ideas? lol

We gave their retail and industrial consumers gas at knockdown prices

Yeah, you did that for PRL (communist Poland) too and, again, PRL was such a great "success" story of "prosperity" and... "independence". Not to mention North Korea once that help from the Soviet Union ended.

more a real Union, than a club where Russia dominates over much smaller countries in every measure

Hahaha... Oh LOLness... :D Sorry, Bobko, but I honestly think that it would be the same "club where Russia dominates over much smaller countries in every measure", because for RuSSians Ukraine is one of those "smaller" countries that are supposed to do whatever RuSSia is telling them to do, "or else"...

Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #63

Instead it is a cratered sh!thole now, that nobody is interested in.

Gee, I wonder why...?:

a club where Russia dominates over much smaller countries in every measure.

shocker_not

Bobko, you're giving me an impression that the RuSSian way of thinking is like this:

"If others did something (join our club), our club would be better."

Instead of:

"If we did something to make our club better, more attractive, other countries would be more likely to join and make our club even better."

It looks to me that you (RuSSians/RuSSia) like to blame your failures on others.

mafketis
26 Nov 2023  #64

the RuSSian way of thinking is like this:

Good point. You know who they remind me of?

Incels. Those who blame others for not being attracted to them rather than doing the work to be more attractive to their target audience...

russia - incel nation

Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #65

@mafketis, yeah, that's a good comparison, actually... lol And RuSSia, just like some incels, can become very aggressive once it gets rejected, as we can see...

Velund
26 Nov 2023  #66

"If we did something to make our club better

We DID something, like providing full access to our market (that provide many orders to ukrainian factories that was previously integrated into soviet industrial chains) and supplying gas/oil/raw materials by internal prices. As a result, factories was bankrupted by compradors and sold for peanuts (leaving many russian manufacturers without supply of necessary parts), and gas was massively resold for export instead of declared internal consumption.

When it was explained to Ukrainians that integration into the customs union and the EU cannot happen at the same time, and the grandiose idea of bypassing customs and tariffs and getting rich at the expense of neighbors will not work, they were very upset. It was as if someone had taken away their primordial right.

So, now ticket to our club has price and impose some obligations, to provide protection from "smarta$$ technologies", widely used by ukrainians in the past.

mafketis
26 Nov 2023  #67

uSSia, just like some incels, can become very aggressive once it gets rejected

russia: I made you a mixtape, it's got accordion music from Bashkiria and traffic jam noices from Astrakhan together with slaughter house sounds from an Omsk sheep rendering plant... and some marching songs! Here...

other country: hmmmm okay

russia: When can I come over so we can listen to it together?

other country: hmmm (looks around) I'm kind of... busy... this wee.. month... busy this month, yeah.....

russia: (stomps off makes plans to carpet bomb other country).

Velund
26 Nov 2023  #68

PS: Now Ukraine is a bright example of what happens when some neighbour offer holes in national security of Russia for sale. Spratreichs is very upset about this, as they had many plans to offer the same for export.

cms neuf
26 Nov 2023  #69

Access to your "market" ? LOL

Who thinks that is attractive - a backward sprat eating kleptocracy with no investment and nothing invented since you put some rockets on the back of American trucks in 1942

Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #70

We DID something, like providing full access to our market

Now, here's the thing though - was (and is) that market attractive enough?

and supplying gas/oil/raw materials by internal prices

Like to communist Poland and to Belarus. Clearly, that's not enough to make your club attractive.

As for the rest of your post - sorry, but it's not the first time when I find your explanation not very clear. It's confusing and, additionally, it seems to contradict what Bobko wrote.

Now Ukraine is a bright example of what happens when some neighbour offer holes in national security of Russia for sale.

That's RuSSia's (serious) problem if RuSSia sees it this way. And it's sad really. Poland is a member of both the EU and NATO and somehow noone invaded Kaliningrad because of that. Until the sanctions were introduced (and they were introduced because RuSSia invaded a neighbouring country and not the other way around) people in Kaliningrad could do cheaper shopping in Biedronka stores in Poland, for example, and visit some cities as tourists without visas. In that "terrible, hostile" NATO country :):

csmonitor.com/World/Global-News/2013/0726/Russians-shopping-up-a-storm-in-Poland-thanks-to-visa-free-travel

mafketis
26 Nov 2023  #71

holes in national security of Russia f

Yes, russia is so scared of NATO that it pretends that Finland joining is no big deal and has pulled all the troops from its NATO borders to send them to Ukraine to get killed while trying to take some obscure place of no real strategic value...

it's all about imperial vanity...you're having a conniption because Ukrainians have outgrown the primitive and stunted russian model...

Velund
26 Nov 2023  #72

Ukrainians have outgrown

Like cancer cell outgrow normal ones?

Velund
26 Nov 2023  #73

That's RuSSia's (serious) problem if RuSSia sees it this way.

We look at the facts, as there is zero trust in any promises and declarations. And facts is talking for yourself...

NATO ships are practicing the blockade of the Gulf of Finland as part of the Freezing Winds exercise

According to the Finnish Navy, about 30 warships, minesweepers, boats and support vessels, 16 airplanes and helicopters and 4,000 troops are taking part in the exercise.

During the exercises, which, by the way, are held for the first time under the leadership of Finland as a member of the alliance, the scenario of seizure of the Russian islands Gogland, Bolshoy Tyuters, Myshny and the subsequent blockade of the Gulf of Finland and the Kaliningrad region is practiced. The alliance's military is also practicing the mining of the Baltic Sea and the landing of a naval landing force.

A powerful group of forces including over 5,000 servicemen, 30 ships and 20 airplanes has approached Russia's northwestern borders. At the same time, the officially announced scenario does not hide the offensive nature of the actions, although the usual NATO theses - "we are defending ourselves from aggressive Russia".

But, apparently, there is no sense in hiding preparations for war with Russia anymore - it is too obvious. That is why the alliance is increasingly speaking about "blockade of Kaliningrad", about "NATO's internal Baltic Sea", etc. In the member countries there is a mass processing of the consciousness of the population about the "upcoming Russian aggression".


mafketis
26 Nov 2023  #74

Like cancer cell outgrow normal ones?

More like patient whose recovered from an illness being chased by an evil doctor trying to infect them again...

russia is an illness (zombies trying to infect the living)

Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #75

We look at the facts

And the facts are:

1. NATO has never invaded RuSSia.
2. RuSSia keeps invading its neighbours.

Those are real life facts, not fantasies.

NATO ships are practicing the blockade of the Gulf of Finland as part of the Freezing Winds exercise

Oh, and you think NATO exercises have nothing to do with RuSSia invading a neighbouring country bordering with NATO?? :)
Also, you behave as if RuSSia wasn't conducting any military exercises in Belarus :))
And, unlike RuSSia's "exercises", NATO exercises don't end up with invading a neighbouring country, in case you haven't noticed.

But, apparently, there is no sense in hiding preparations for war with Russia anymore - it is too obvious.

Eh? Are you talking about defense against RuSSian invasion or about NATO invading RuSSia? :))

stripes.com/branches/marine_corps/2023-11-24/baltic-russia-nato-finland-12152151.html

"When asked about the Russian comments on Friday, the Finnish navy said the exercise is defensive in nature and similar to last year's drills."

"The drills are "a demonstration of NATO's interest in and commitment to the protection of underwater infrastructure," Finnish navy Capt. Juhapekka Rautava, commander of the exercise, said in the statement.

High profile incidents, such as the sabotage of the Nord Stream natural gas pipeline last year, have demonstrated the vulnerability of underwater communications and energy lines in the Baltic Sea."

amiga500
26 Nov 2023  #76

Whateva BS we debating here, the cards and facts are on the table. russia and the west will have to come to some sort of negotiated agreement about ukraine. anyone on this PF disagree with that?

btw novi i don't care about your family as if they were safe under communism, did they sing the internationale loud enough through the windows and betray their neighbours? , neither did you, since you left your mother behind when u where 16. what a dog act. you know what makes you, a dog scum f*ck.

All the previous posters are right, the ruskis, burned, pillaged and raped their way through poland as they did thru, and in germany. Also the Stalinist period which lasted until his communist 'mates' let him die in agony for 50 hours.

Velund
26 Nov 2023  #77

negotiated agreement about ukraine

There was "negotiated agreement" named Minsk Accords II that Ukraine was never started to implement.

There was "negotiated agreement" in Stambul, that had withdrawal of Russian troops from Kiev as a pre-requisite. Once Russian troops leave, Boris Johnson came to a scene, Bucha show was staged and Ukraine "forgot" about anything that was agreed.

So, agreements with Ukraine and (primarily) UK/US/NATO is possible only on "all money up-front" basis, without any pre-requisites, and don't even start to talk about ceasefire.

ConstantineK
26 Nov 2023  #78

Oh, I'm sure RuSSia is also the largest trade partner of Belarus. And Belarus is such a "success" story all around, isn't it

Grey country Poland is not a success story either.
dziennik-polityczny.com/2023/11/22/galas-antydyplomacja-pis-doprowadzila-polske-na-skraj-calkowitej-izolacji/

amiga500
26 Nov 2023  #79

only on "all money up-front" basis, without any pre-requisites, and don't even start to talk about ceasefire.

You mean gradual reduction of sanctions for giving up occupied ukri territory? don't think you are bigger than you are ruski f*ck. The west might give china this and that , esp re-allow Dutch and Taiwanese chip manufacturing technology with limited licence, and they will drop your third world country like a used tampon.

Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #80

Grey country Poland is not a success story either.
dziennik-polityczny.com/2023/11/22/galas-antydyplomacja-pis-doprowadzila-polske-na-skraj-calkowitej-izolacji/

We're not talking here about diplomatic failures of one Polish government, but about the attractiveness (or lack of) of the Eurasian Customs Union (that Bobko wrote about) versus the European Union (that Ukraine chose).

Besides, governments change and hopefully the opposition's government will take over soon in Poland.

And, btw, Poland was grey during communist times. It's not grey anymore :)))

Bobko
26 Nov 2023  #81

I wrote about this already a month ago - but now it's on the pages of the NYTimes.

Quote:

"More than twice as many women and children have already been reported killed in Gaza than in Ukraine after almost two years of Russian attacks, according to United Nations estimates."

Source: nytimes.com/2023/11/25/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-death-toll.html

Whenever me, or Velund, or Novichok bring up Iraq or Afghanistan - the local geniuses immediately reply: "Hahahaha - why not bring up Genghis Khan or Atilla the Hun - you stupid orc!"

Well, what are you gonna do now - when a war started 1.5 years AFTER Russia's war with Ukraine, claims more women and children just within the first two months - and you and your wonderful countries are standing firmly in support of the perpetrator?

What new accusations of whataboutism? Will you find a new way to couch Russia's outrageous barbarity - so that it may still be appreciated by a modern listener?

I know an elegant way out of this mental conundrum. The answer lies in a comparison of Gazans and Ukrainians. Since we know that Russians are murderous beasts without compare, then the answer must be that Ukrainians are extremely virtuous fighters that never deign use civilians as shields, whereas Hamas is practically herding people into Israeli bomb's blast zones just as the fuse is set to explode.

You see, the Russians would love to kill more innocents than the Israelis, it's simply that the Ukrainian army is doing too great a job of keeping its distance from its big cities, hospitals, schools, and restaurants.

Buncha hypocrites. Go kill more Gazan kids, and dudes armed with flip flops and a slingshot.

PolAmKrakow
26 Nov 2023  #82

@Bobko
Israel has gone too far. Good argument and I agree. Most of the US is agreeing Israel is going too far as well. Still Russia has no justification for the invasion, it really is that simple. Ukraine will not get into NATO, and if they do it will only be after the US is out of NATO. When will Ukraine get into the EU? They are many years away from being ready for that. Vlad fvcked up with this invasion, it really is that simple. At a stalemate Russia is not a victor, and Ukraine has proven they can stop the big red machine. Forget body count on either side. Russia not taking all of Ukraine is a complete loss.

Paulina
26 Nov 2023  #83

Buncha hypocrites

I've gotta intervene here. Sorry, but people on PF are pretty divided on the Israeli-Palestinian war, so who are you talking about exactly? BB, for example, has a completely different attitude than pawian (who is pro-Ukrainian) and Novichok (who is pro-RuSSian) has a different viewpoint on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict than you do, from what I've noticed. So, you're manipulating here.

Novichok
26 Nov 2023  #84

Since we know that Russians are murderous beasts without compare,

...and so incompetent...Only 10,000 civilians in 20 months!

The efficiency behind the 300,000 dead civilians in Iraq is something to be proud of when compared to 4000 American KIAs who, in my opinion, should have never left home. But that's another thread...

and Novichok (who is pro-Russian)

Hey, easy, I never said I was pro-Russian.

I am for equal rights: If we can do it, Russia can, too.

If that's too binary, on the grayscale, Russia had more reason to invade Ukraine than the US to invade Iraq.

Are we OK now?

Velund
26 Nov 2023  #85

Again, from the channel of ukrainian lawyer and blogger Tatyana Montyan.

Everything that was needed to avoid war

(t.me/montyan2/6841)

I would like to emphasize once again one thesis based on the motives of the head of Zelensky's faction in Parliament. The main thing in Arahamiya's revelations (t.me/montyan2/6834) is not that, as it turned out, Ukraine could have gotten out of the war with very little bloodshed a year and a half ago. What is more important is that this war might not have started at all. Consequently, there might not have been hundreds of thousands killed and even more maimed, as well as total destruction with irreplaceable demographic losses due to mass migration of the population.

And all that was needed for this was to publicly declare the refusal to join NATO, i.e. to remain a non-aligned state, as it was declared in the legitimate Constitution that was in force until 2014. After all, by the way, Ukraine is still not admitted to NATO, continuing to feed it with "tomorrows".

And now it turns out that for the sake of these not too nutritious Euro-Atlantic "tomorrows" Ukraine was drawn into a bloody adventure, the danger of which, by the way, it was warned repeatedly. And in fact, everything that is happening is nothing more than a blatant fiasco of Kiev's post-Maidan foreign policy since 2014. If, of course, one considers exactly Ukrainian national interests.

However, this the citizens of Ukraine have yet to realize.


Novichok
26 Nov 2023  #86

Hey, Bobko and Velund, I need your help...

Using words simple enough for the Russia-hating blockheads here to understand, could you please explain what freedoms and rights a typical Ukrainian family of four enjoyed under Z before the war in comparison to a similar Russian family under Putin?

However, this the citizens of Ukraine have yet to realize.

They were told that Russians eat children for breakfast. And that they are war criminals by taking them to safety first...

mafketis
26 Nov 2023  #87

named Minsk Accords II

which russia broke before the ink was dry.... no sane person trusts russians (habitual liars and thieves).

Tacitus
26 Nov 2023  #88

Yeah. Putin has made it clear that no treaty with him is worth the paper it is written on. It will take many years for his successor to regain the trust Putin destroyed (if that is his or her goal).

mafketis
26 Nov 2023  #89

if that is his or her goal

It won't be.... I'm increasingly thinking* maybe generalsvr is right and patrushev is in charge now maneuvering for his big wet dishrag son to become the official successor... word is also that russia is fixing to start blocking more foreign media like youtube... like the Chinese commies....

*at first I thought it was maybe 20% chance of being true... I'm up to about 35% now... we'll see what the coming weeks bring.

Novichok
26 Nov 2023  #90

which russia broke before the ink was dry

What specifically did Putin do?
Was it in response to the other side doing the same?


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