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Poland under pressure of EU to accept more asylum seeking refugees



Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #61

No, the refugee problem does concern only Italy and Greece only but the whole Europe since 75% of all refugees end up in 5 countries (UK, Germany, France, Sweden and if I remember Spain).

As to EU money, if not important to Poland, why does Poland take it????? ;)
wjtk
19 Jun 2015  #62

If they are so stupid to accept most of applications for refugee status (especially Sweden) its their problem. In countries like Poland or Hungary 99% of applications are rejected because they are nothing more than scams in most cases.

France simply fortfied its border with Italy to prevent illegals from coming there btw.

Launch EU mission at mediterranean sea. Turn back every boat we detect near Libya shore. Launch air strikes against empty boats at Libyan ports. Send special forces against smugglers groups. Feed, give cloths, 5 euro and deport everyone coming here illegaly in boats.

I guarantee that after few months this mess will end - small chanches for succes = less people willing to pay smugglers for transport to Europe. As i said most of them aren't refugees anyway, they are economic immigrants.
Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #63

The problem is indeed rather complex but Poland shall do as being told (Poland cannot afford to play the "tough guy")
wjtk
19 Jun 2015  #64

Such cheap rhetoric won't work here.
Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #65

@Wjtk: "beggars don't choose". Poland does not have the power to dictate its way as it depends so much on EU money. Only those who pay have their word to say. No matter what, it is always this way and you cannot change reality!
wjtk
19 Jun 2015  #66

You are a Greek, aren't you? <lol>

1) We are not depended from EU money
2) we can co-create EU policy just like any other EU country and that actually happens in many areas. Oen your eyes,
3) we certainly have last word on subject who will come here,
4) EU is not a dictatorship. Every country has voice, rights, votes, veto rights. If we had to do whatever Germany, France, UK wants without right to say ,,no" we would not be in the EU.

You live in some alternative reality. Time to come back to earth.

You can post 1000 same mesages but it won't change anything - noone is coming here.
wino
19 Jun 2015  #67

@Wino: you don't understand :) but it is clear 1. Poland has joined the EU (without habing the knife Under the throat) and thus is part of the whole

But that is just the thing, nobody has to receive economic migrants, so it is not even about solidarity. Plenty of countries in the world don't do that. If some EU countries feel it would be beneficial to them they can open their arms and great them, if not they should be send back. There is a big difference between ecnomic migrants and refugees.

2. Poland is no.1 EU funds receipient

So?? I have already explained why it is not as simple as you are trying to portay it.

3. EU is not a supermarket, members take the whole deal or they .... get the he.. out (= no more money for Poland)

You don't know how the EU works, do you?learn that and then we can talk.

4. "why should other countries accept Polish economic migrants?"

Because Poland is a part of EU? Because other coutries agreed to Poland joining EU?
Because Poland wouldn't protest other EU member states' citizens to migrate to Poland?
Also, If Great Britain decides to leave EU and cast out Poles working there I will not protest as it would be their right.

As to EU money, if not important to Poland, why does Poland take it????? ;)

Again, I have summarized pros and cons of Poland in EU a few posts back, but since you either dodn't read it or arguments don't do it for you, I shall answer on your level- Why EU gives them?

. Turn back every boat

Exactly, Australia did it and with great success. We should also remember that lots of people die trying to get to Europe, so maintainig status quo doesn't do anyone any favors.

Such cheap rhetoric won't work here.

Is it even a rhetoric? IMO you are too generous.

@Wjtk: "beggars don't choose". Poland does not have the power to dictate its way as it depends so much on EU money. Only those who pay have their word to say. No matter what, it is always this way and you cannot change reality!

That is not how EU works. Must be frustrating for you, is that why you are on this forum?
Polsyr
19 Jun 2015  #68

wjtk; you alone don't decide what Poland is going to do. At most you can protest or vote (if you are a Polish citizen) for the representative that matches your ideals most closely. EU is not a dictatorship, absolutely. But money talks no?

Let us have a look at actual numbers. Here is official data on Poland's State budget for 2015 from the Ministry of Finance, in English;

mf.gov.pl/en/ministry-of-finance/state-budget/estimated-execution-of-the-state-budget

EU funds direct cash contribution to Polish state budget, which the Polish government is free to spend however they wish is 1.5 Billion Zloty.

EU contribution to projects that are co financed from Polish state budget is 49.2 Billion Zloty.

EU Grants + contribution to all other projects = 303.7 Billion Zloty.

Total EU contribution: 354.4 Billion Zloty estimated for 2015.
These figures may vary slightly depending on exchange rate variations, rate of project execution and release of payments etc, so look at this as a ballpark figure.

Now let's put this EU contribution into perspective in relationship to where Poland stands financially today:
Polish State Revenue for 2015, estimated: 297.2 Billion Zloty.
Polish State Expense for 2015, estimated: 343.2 Billion Zloty.
Poland's GDP 2013: USD 517.5 Billion =~ 1,480 Billion Zloty per exchange rates of 31/12/2013.

This means that EU's contribution to Poland is bigger than the entire revenue or expense budget of the Polish state, and equal to about 24% of Poland's entire GDP.

This is only one financial aspect. The other one is all the other investments originating from other EU countries and coming to Poland, not as a part of the EU funds, but facilitated and made possible by Poland's EU membership.

Here are 3 examples, and this data is from 2013 and the source is Polish Info & Investment Agency (paiz.gov.pl/poland_in_figures/foreign_direct_investment)

Germany: EUR 27.5 Billion
Holland: EUR 25.9 Billion
France: EUR 19.1 Billion
Total (for only 3 EU countries) = EUR 72.5 Billion = ~ 293.6 Billion Zloty. Again, this figure is about the same as the entire Polish State revenue budget and equal to about 20% of Poland's GDP for the same year (2013).

Edited to add: I don't know how many jobs money from EU creates in Poland exactly, but how about you guess how many jobs can be created with 350 Billion Zloty per year?

So, you say you are ready to give up not less than 45% of Poland's GDP in terms of EU funds and EU investments to avoid hosting a few refugees? Did you know that the EU will pay Poland per each refugee taken EUR 6,000 per year= PLN 24,000 per year = PLN 2,000 per month, which is a salary that some Polish FAMILIES live on? This literally means the Polish state's cost for accepting refugees is zero or close to zero. All that is needed is for Polish people to volunteer some of their time to help potential refugees assimilate into Polish society and learn the Polish way of life.
Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #69

@Polsyr: thanks for your detailed info! :)

@wtjk: 1. My country became a EU over 40 years ago ;) 2. I have worked at EU institutions and 3 and conclusion: I obviously know more than you do re EU ;)
wjtk
19 Jun 2015  #70

@Polsyr Unfortunately info provided by you is total bs.

You do realize that total value of EU funds provided by you is the value for time period 2014-2020, NOT FOR ONE YEAR ONLY? So you have to multiply Polish yearly budget x7 to get full picture?

You do realize that Polish direct contribution into EU budget for time period 2014-2020 is 30 BILLIONS EURO (more than 120 billion ZL)?
bankier.pl/wiadomosc/Skladka-Polski-do-budzetu-UE-w-latach-2014-2020-wyniesie-ok-30-mld-euro-Serafin-2760521.html

You do realize that Poland contribute into EU budget also in a few different ways and we have to pay alot to get any EU funds?

tomaszcukiernik.pl/artykuly/teksty-o-unii-europejskiej/prawda-i-falsz-o-dotacjach-z-ue

You do realize that value of EU funds provided by you is MAXIUMUM what we can get and in fact we are awarded with much less?

You didn't realize all of that? Well, i'm not suprised, your understanding of Poland and the EU is close 0.
Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #71

@Wjtk; what you need to consider is 1. what Poland pays and 2. what Poland gets and you'll see that no.2 is much higher. Only a few Western countries pays more than what they get. Poland is well no.1 in terms of benifiting from EU funds and no one can deny it
Polsyr
19 Jun 2015  #72

I provided value of EU funds for only 2015. For the time period you mentioned, multiply by 8 (not 7). The total amount is about EUR 700 Billion meaning PLN 2.8 Trillion. Polish State contribution to EU funds is stated clearly in their budget. It is PLN 18.1 Billion for 2015, mentioned clearly here: mf.gov.pl/documents/764034/3397368/20150601_state_budget_expenditure_IV_2015.pdf

My data is from Polish Government. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't make it false as you imply.

Too late to edit, I was looking at 2013-2020, not 2014-2020, so 8 years not 7. My data is on EU contributions for 1 year only, 2015.
wjtk
19 Jun 2015  #73

Oh stop manipulating, non of documents provided by you says that Poland is receiving 303.7 Billion PLN per year from the EU!!! You don't even understand source you are posting here.

parp.gov.pl/index/more/36950

Here is official EU/Polish government site clearly saying that for time period 2014-2020 Poland will receive 82,5 billions euro. Every single government site is saying the same, aswell as politics if you google what they are saying.

Polish TOTAL contribution into EU budget in 2014-2020 is 30 billions euro. So in fact what we can really get 52,5 billions euro which is MAXIMUM what we can get between 2014-2020. In fact it will be much less.

Hahahah, i can't believe you thought we are getting 82 billions euro per year.
Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #74

@wjtk: thanks to confirm that Poland depeends so much upon EU funds
Polsyr
19 Jun 2015  #75

@wjtk; that is for only cohesion funds. What about the rest?
wjtk
19 Jun 2015  #76

Oh did i? EU funds are 5-8% of Polish yearly budget according to info i provided here. That numbers doesn't include cost of upkeepeing useless EU institutions in Poland, other financial burdens we have suffer due to our participation in the EU and the fact that we don't use ALL EU funds.

It also doesn't include the fact that that money are often spent on useless investitions like oversized aquaparks which we later have to upkeep. It doesn't really benefit into Polish economy youknow

Not to mention that we were doing very well before we jointed the EU.
Polsyr
19 Jun 2015  #77

Not to mention that we were doing very well before we jointed the EU.

That is pure bs.
Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #78

@Wjtk: everythins in Poland is now financed by the EU and thanks to EU, millions of Poles can go abroad for work and they send their monies earned abroad to Poland.

If EU is so bad for Poland, why no body wants to get out???? The soup taskes too god ;)
wjtk
19 Jun 2015  #79

@Polsyr, again you present pure ignorance about the subject.

Poland doubled its GDP between 1989-2004, we enjoyed higher economy growth than today, every single statistic was better before 2004 like rise of export, rise of wages.

In 1992 Ukraine was richer than Poland, in 2004 it was way behind it. Poland made huge step forward between 1989-2004 without being in the EU.
Gosc123456
19 Jun 2015  #80

@Wjtk; especially in those days, all companies in Poland were from the West ;). Without those companies' money and then without EU's money, Poland would never make it.

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