European obsession with firearm ownership.

Simple question here, Europeans seem to be obsessed with the fact that Americans own firearms. Why is that? I dont understand if its fear that if they come to America they will be gunned down in the street or something? I really find it to be an enigma.

Why do Europeans feel they have no right to defend themselves from their fellow man if need be? If equality of gender is a goal, why deny the smallest woman the ability to walk the street at night with the confidence (and consequences) of the strongest man?

Perhaps there is some philosophical difference that I am completely unaware of.

What is the Polish attitude towards personal firearms?

I don't think it's an obsession, but there are longstanding and repeated issues in Europe about people who've gone to jail for shooting burglars. Most people support them - the law however doesn't, and certain politicians (like the next premier David Cameron in the UK) are getting involved. There was a particularly tragic case in Poland not long ago. America is usually referenced by the media as the opposite extreme.

It's an issue partly because of the dichotomy between the absolute ban on personal handguns and the alleged ease of getting them.

And whenever a school or campus shooting happens in Finland or the US, it gets shown on the news around the world.

Its the same here. The news is pretty biased IMO the way that they never show any cases where the weapon is used legally. The FBI reports that of all shootings in the US, roughly 50% are found to be justified. They also never report that of all handgun deaths, another 50% are in fact suicides.

A few years ago, you'd have been surprised how many people in the UK had a discreet firearm somewhere at home. Often left over from the war and probably not maintained. When I was a kid, all farmers kept a gun, usually just propped against the wall in their kitchen. The Dunblane massacre changed a lot. That and the police reaction to call-outs where they suspect somebody's armed.

A drunk in the UK was shot dead by police just for having a 'gun-shaped object'.

I remember that - he was Scottish and carrying a table leg in a bag. Someone reported an Irishman with a sawn off shotgun. Theres also the Charles de Menzies case.

Its a tough call for the officers responding, Adrenaline pumping, all your training just for a few seconds judgement etc - can't help but feel that these two examples could have been prevented tho.

I know it's a simple answer, but just take a good look at what happened to one of our forum members. Ofcourse a gun could be used solely to defend yourself with if need be, but unfortunately, guns are more often used for all the wrong reasons. How do you feel about all the high school shootings?


I don't think you're a naive person, and I'm sure you're able to understand atleast some of my reasoning. If guns were illegal, it would be much, much harder to obtain one, and even harder to obtian bullets. A lot of troubled people who now have relatively easy access to firearms, wouldn't be able to figure out where to obtain their hardware if it was illegal, and this would probably discourage most of them before they make any rash decisions. Just keep in mind that most crimes are committed in the heat of the moment, so if you have some time to think about your planned course of action without a gun in your possession, and if it's not exactly worth all the trouble..

Well, I think you'll see a massive decline in murder rates sooner or later? Take my country for example, ofcourse there are criminals who are able to obtain guns, but those are the criminals with the means and the money in most cases. (Only a few exceptions!) These criminals usually are the smarter types, and not exactly the type of criminals who would commit petty theft for a few coins, simple robbery, burglary, or even rob a nightshop or a liqour store.

You're free to disagree with me, but I know the facts don't lie. In my country, not too many people die, or even get seriously injured after they've been the victim of a crime. In your country, a lot of people die, or are condemned to a wheelchair for the rest of their lives. The facts don't lie Tymoteusz, and ofcourse you can compare all these figures for yourself..

Another person, I am a friend of Harry Stanley's family in London


The family are furious.

That was the case I was referring to. An absolute tragedy for which the police should be ashamed.

In my city, they tasered a guy slumped over a rucksack on the bus. It turned out he was a diabetic who'd gone into hypoglaecaemia.

I don't think it's why they own them but with the apparent ease at which you can get all manner of weapons. From small calibre pistols up to military grade assault rifles. I know the thrill of shooting and have shot a wide variety of weapons in my time.

But still wonder why people are allowed to have at home military style assault weapons. These are not hunting or target weapons they are designed for military use.


If i cannot get firearms then in all probablity neither can he so i defend myself in other ways.

I'm all for it!
With only one rule - no concealed weapon

Cops. Kind of like herpes. Avoid 'em if you can.
We had an officer here in Dayton who tried to talk a disturbed man into giving her his shotgun and he shot her. She died about two years later from complications. I don't much care for the police. (I have family members who are officers) I must also state that you couldn't give me their job if it paid a gazzillion dollars a year either. :/ what to do?


Horrific to be sure. There was far more going on there than just a "gun involved" incident. To be sure if I was anti-gun ownership that would be the event I would build my cause around. I do think the parents of school shooters should be put in prison for their negligence and for raising such dumb fuckers. IMO.


Of course I'm naive, I'm American! -lol I understand what you are saying completely. It is a logical conclusion. So much for logic and onward to human nature! The axiom "control is an illusion" comes to mind here. In the US as most of you know, most drugs that you would actually want to do, are illegal. Well, that ban hasn't worked has it? I think outlawing guns would be even more of a failure than banning drugs has been. firearms exist, they will continue to exist, people want them, best to come to an acceptance of the idea that both tradgedy and heroism will result from their usage. Trust the citizen to decide what is proper for themselves. A ban and siezure of guns in the US will make me a very wealthy criminal. I'll be making and selling crude firearms in my basement just as fast as I can. The worst part of that is that they would be almost completely silent. Arien, you are a bright man, The idea of ridding the world of weapons would be utopic, but it has some fatal flaws in it. It leaves things unbalanced. A personal firearm is a great equallizer in society. Balance between citizens, balance between citizen and government, balance between nations etc. I hope I was able to convey my thoughts effectively here. I guess I'll just type what I think and take my chances...


They are meant to be for both civil defense and in the case of civil unrest. Again its a balance thing. When you enter the military or the Police force in the US, You swear to uphold the constitution, not the elected officials or the party. It may be the fundamental difference between many countries and the US. Citizens own weapons, slaves and peasants dont. Thats a pretty common theme in the American psyche. I know thats a pretty bold statement but I stand by it.

Switzerland actually issues its citizens weapons if I am not mistaken. Is it a problem there?


A concealed weapon is the best deterent yet. If you are the kind who likes to get drunk and fuck with random people on the street, I strongly advise against it while you are here. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy your stay in our country and do come back and visit us again!

:) :) :) :3

I fail to see it

First of all European men are real men,they are not scared and do not need weapons.

Too many massacres of accidental people in USA have probably caused this obsession.

In terms of personal safety, Poland is a few miles ahead of America.

In Ireland we do it with hurley sticks! A fourteen year girl succeeded in 'subduing' an intruder who broke into the Post Office run by her father by battering him with her camogie stick (camogie is the girls ' version of hurling). A few years ago two off-duty Gardai (Irish police who are unarmed) tackled an armed Lithuanian criminal using their hurling sticks. They were on their way back from a practice session and saw his nibs in the car park threatening another man with a gun so they had a go and managed to disarm and arrest him.

classic! well our Irish and British police do need SOMETHING. pepper spray, hurling stick whatever...:D

But in this case your "probability" went right out the window didn't it.........
If Europeans were allowed to carry firearms this nutter would have thought twice about thinking he could shoot ducks in a barrel.
Thanks to three brave Americans last week many people are still alive today.

The three Americans who subdued a gunman aboard a train to Paris are friends from their middle-school days, and two of them serve in the armed forces.

As the train headed to Paris, they heard what sounded like gunfire.
After seeing the gunman struggling with another passenger, the three friends rushed to subdue the gunman, who was carrying an AK-47 rifle, a handgun, ammunition and a sharp blade, according to the authorities.

The three tackled the gunman and, with the help of a British businessman living in France, tied him up.

My point here is if some of the passengers had handguns it would have leveled the playing field.
Sometimes it takes a gun to stop a gun and maybe this is why Europeans have an obsession to own a gun and carry it.

Just lucky these brave American hero's were at the right place at the right time.
If that guy would have tried that in America, on a train, my guess is about six other passengers would have pulled their guns out and the

terrorist would have been rewarded with his 72 virgins.

Or, as is more likely, they would freeze when confronted with the reality of having to kill.

Highly doubtful Delph when it is crunch time of kill or be killed.

And what if you miss and hit an innocent person?

Most people carrying guns hardly have any sort of training in such an environment. A gun might be useful against an unarmed attacker, but the odds here just aren't good.

Europeans do not have any such obsession. The OP wondered why


The vast majority of Europeans are content with the status quo.

What if ?
What if you nail the perp right square in the eye with a well placed shot ?
What if the three Americans hadn't been on that train to save the lives of many Europeans ?
What if they would have had guns ?
What if the guy would have killed 30 or 40 people ?


The odds would be much better against an unarmed or armed attacker if I had one silly.
And like I said, if everyone on that train would have been carrying a gun do you really think that guy would have tried what he did ?

Of course Europeans have an obsession for guns just for a reason like this.
You can tell the guy to put his gun down and that you want to go at it bare knuckled with him because you don't believe in guns and

see what happens. lol
You just woke up and want to argue Delph.


Then why is the thread named: European obsession with firearm ownership

I'd have my doubts as to whether most gun-carriers would be able to do it first time under immense stress while someone is firing at them. Some will be able to, of course - but many people will never, ever have the experience of firing in anger. If it was so easy, why do the police have such rigorous training before being issued with a firearm?


Then we would have dealt with it in our way.


Then they might have missed and hurt innocent bystanders.


Of course. But a handgun vs some maniac with an assault rife on automatic...well.


Absolutely. People carry guns routinely in the US, yet mass murder is far more common there.


Thing is, these are rare and isolated incidents. You don't hear about European police killing children, or a multitude of other incidents here because we're simply not so obsessed with guns.

Johnny, you know how they market handguns for women in the US? Do you think most women, with a gun in their handbag, would be able to draw it and use it effectively?

Why do you think that? After all, the US has far more public shootings than the EU, despite a much smaller population.


So why doesn't that happen at all the mass shootings you have?



Exactly. I've never, ever, heard anyone in Europe suggest otherwise.

It does, it's just that the Liberal media refuses to make it news worthy.


I have.
PARIS - French authorities on Sunday continued to interrogate a suspect whose attack on a high-speed train was foiled by vacationing American service members, amid mounting questions about security lapses on Europe's vital rail system.

It does seem strange, doesn't it?

Someone with a puny handgun is not going to take on someone armed with assault rifles, are they?

Yes. So much gun ownership yet all these citizens carrying weapons for their protection never seem to stop the mass shooting or cause any sort of reduction in gun deaths at all.


So Fox etc don't cover mass shootings then?


Not in that quote you haven't. Nobody is suggesting railway passengers (or any other civilian) in Europe carry handguns. Nor have I ever heard anyone in Europe say they should.

It's very easy to explain however you will come back with that I am playing the race card even though I am just presenting the FACTS jon.

Europe, you say, has more gun control than the United States, and lower murder rates.
Even though Europe is a diverse place.
The reason that many developed European countries have murder rates much lower than the United States is not guns or gun control.
It is demographics.
Revealed in a study was a simple breakdown of the demographics of the murderers that is not commonly available by the Liberal media.
Murderers were divided into three groups.
Blacks were the most numerous at 46%.
Hispanics were next at 27%.
Non-Hispanic whites were last at 23%.
While murder rates are going down in the United States they are rising sharply in Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean countries.
(non Whites)
Are you slowly getting the picture jon that 73% of the murders in the United States are by none Whites done in five major predominantly non white cities.

It is demographics jon, not guns that do the murdering.

Gun ownership over there is open to people of any background. In Europe it is closed to people with any background. In Europe gun crime is far, far lower.


What effect does that have on your silly assertion that gun ownership (legal there already) would stop crime?

And how does gun ownership prevent


?
An easy answer - it doesn't...

Now, gun violence resulting in death in Poland is at 0.02, the UK at 0.05 - and even gun-happy Croatia a mere 1.1.

Seems to me as if Johnny's racial figures just aren't adding up.