European obsession with firearm ownership.

jon jon jon, simply not true.
If a person has any kind of a felony you are not allowed to be in the possession of a firearm.
If you even have a domestic violence charge against you the same is true. (Yelling at your wife)
Any kind of aggressive charges against you will disqualify you from gun ownership so why do you preach to Europe your
false fantasies.


Who's house would you break into, a homeowner that you knew had a gun and was allowed by law to toast you or one that did not

own a gun ?


Let me repeat as you obviously missed my point.


We have 50 States that make up the United States with most of them bigger then any single European country.
The States of Texas and Alaska are twice the size of Poland and Germany put together.
Yet just 5 cities in the huge United States, that are predominantly non white, have 90% of the gun crime.
That leaves just 10% for the rest of the country.......DEMOGRAPHICS, not guns is the problem jon.
A good example is that you Liberals tell us we are NOT to judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few
lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics.
The day will come that the Europeans will wish they had a right to defend themselves with a gun.

I've already shown you above that gun crime in liberal Massachusetts is 2.57 deaths per 100,000 among whites, while a mere 1.1 in Croatia, which is the worst in Europe from what I can tell. How do you explain that figure?

Simple.
For example, the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence ranked Massachusetts the third most restrictive state for firearm legislation in 2011.After Massachusetts passed a tough law restricting gun use in 1998, gun ownership rates dropped sharply, but violent crimes and murders increased.

Plus a lot of white Bankers live in the Mass that commit suicide with guns.

Oh Johnny...

Given that Massachusetts actually has the lowest rates in the United States, you seem to have missed the point ;)

This is indeed a perfect example of the liberal agenda being spread so easily and readily on the Polish Forum.

This is also a very good example of how most people never attempt at getting deeper into the statistical image that is being portrayed for them by the predominantly liberal media in Poland and elsewhere in the EU. And I myself have been almost convinced (despite reading a lot of Polish and foreign - not American however - press) until now that people in the US are like crazy maniacs who simply shoot about as they walk along American streets

Anyway, that's how the propaganda works. Back in the commie times in Poland we were frequently told that America was basically a country with a lot of injustice where they often beat the black people in the streets. And Uncle Sam was always conspiring how to attack the peace-loving nations of the Soviet Union and its Warsaw Pact allies with their ugly imperialistic guns and weapons. Now the commie propaganda has turned into the liberal propaganda, its somewhat more subtle version that is ...

Oh Delphey........ I don't think so, I think you missed mine;-)

Yet they manage to get them, don't they. So many floating around over there, plus the so-called 'gun fairs'.


Personally I don't often break into houses, especially when the owner is at home, but if I did and if guns were easily available, I'd be armed to the teeth...


No sign of that, and crime statistics show we're safer without them.

But the sign was on that train from Amsterdam to Paris. If the Americans did not have guns with them, there would have been a massacre on that train. The Europeans on the train would just cry: stop shooting, we are Europeans, we have no guns! Be a good boy and kill us with your knives (he had several knives), will you?

So what? He would have have killed them with his knives, but crimes statistics would have gone up nevertheless, if there were no Americans with their guns on the train.

Indeed. They did not have guns with them.


Which there weren't, of course. The 62 year old British computer contractor, Chris Norman, who also received the Legion D'Honneur was similarly unarmed.

And of course when these mass shootings keep happening in America, the fact that they


doesn't make the slightest difference.

Yes jon as I have explained to you how many times but once more.
In Jamaica guns are outlawed period yet Jamaica has one of the highest gun homicide rates in the world.
Did outlawing them make any difference there either ? Hell No.
When you take guns away from the good guys only the bad guys will have them. (A no brainer my friend)


And home owners know this. So when a bad guy is breaking in your home would you rather have a cell phone
in your hand calling the police or a gun in your hand locked and loaded ????
I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer; it makes you a smart American.


That is what you keep pratting jon but statistics say otherwise. Once again just for you jon.


And in towns in the southern U.S.A. that the mayors required people to own a gun the crime rate actually dropped.
Explain that jon.


And AGAIN jon just for you........


These mass shootings are being done by crazy people jon.
Maybe it's time you Liberals allow the "inhumane mental institutions" to open back up and get them out of society. After all it was you do all gooder's Liberals that turned them loose on the public saying it was inhumane to house them for in home treatment.

I have an idea jon, you Liberals don't want to own guns fine, don't but please don't tell me that people that do want them to defend their family

and property shouldn't have one.
That's like a vegetarian trying to tell me that I can't eat meat.
What works good for you doesn't necessarily mean that it will work good for me.
You will see the day that Poland arms it's citizens.

As you've tried to pretend.

The fact is that gun crime is far lower in Europe than in the US, and there is no particular desire to relax gun control in Europe.

How do you explain this, Jon?

Really? Perhaps you would like to tell us what guns those Americans had on that train and the legal basis under which they had them? I'm unaware of any law in Europe that allows American tourists in Europe to carry guns on the basis that the law where they are from allows them to carry guns.

And after you have done that, perhaps you can tell us why virtually every single news source reporting the story has reported that those Americans were unarmed? How do you explain that?


You might claim that, but the Washington Post says that there are hundreds of thousands of legal civilian guns in Jamaica.

washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/nation/gun-homicides-ownership/table/

The Washington Post as linked to above obviates the need to respond to a false claim.

Actually, now I look more closely at the source for the WaPo, I see that there are hundreds of thousands of civilian guns in Jamaica but only 65,000 legal civilian guns (ht tp://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/9208), which are owned by 50,000 licensed gun owners (ht tp://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/citation/quotes/1525). By comparison there are 500,000 legal civilian guns in Poland http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/poland

Now that's out of the way, perhaps Ziemowit can tell us what guns those Americans had on that train and the legal basis under which they had them? And why pretty much every news source in the world says that they had no guns?

Somehow I doubt it.

Actually, "Mass murders" are not very common in the US, they only seem so because the most sensational incidents are all that makes the news. There are many more times when an individual has attempted to have a mass killing, only to have been stopped by a trained and armed citizen. However, these incidents are still less than 1% in total of the firearms violence statistics for the US and they are never widely reported.

I worked tracing firearms being used during the Arab spring/by ISIS and now I am a designer and manufacturer of their components. I would be happy to clear up other misconceptions about them.

Also, to be noted: In the US the majority of deaths by firearms is through gang activity with firearms that are stolen, or obtained throughout the government regulated channels and would not have been subjected to regulation anyways.

Not very common compared to where? In the US, mass shooting incidents are much more common than in jurisdictions with effective gun control.

I don't think we've ever had a mass shooter in Poland.

Not as common as they are presented to be in the US, or many other 1st world nations.

There is a problem with media worldwide misrepresenting stories, claiming false statistics and so on.

I cannot find a trustworthy count anywhere because there is so much fabrication and supposition on the issue, but in 2012 there were 12-16 "Mass shootings" recorded in the US that have been confirmed by several sources. The only criteria for that was that more than one individual was harmed, or killed.

There are 300,000,000+ people living in the US and 700,000,000 firearms in circulation in the country "Legally" and I only use that term to place context. Less than 1% of crimes committed in the US involve a rifle, or shotgun, less than .06% of those involve firearms inaccurately described as "Assault weapons". The reported events that you are speaking of involving multiple casualties fall into that .06%.

As has been said before, there are events that do not qualify "On the record", or are prevented without making any record what so ever.

The issues with interpersonal violence in the US will not be solved by firearms legislation. There are complex social issues that are either more prevalent here, or non existent throughout Europe.

We have a growing number of poor, uneducated and unemployed in the US who have children without thought and allow them to run wild like animals in the streets along with poor treatment of people suffering from drug addiction.

The majority of my statement is from FBI violent crime statistics for several years. I am sorry I do not know how to adequately quote them as the US education system did a poor job teaching the importance.


You have had mass shooters in Poland. They worked for a guy named Adolf and he was a big supporter of regulating firearms "For public safety".

Godwin's law.


Likewise in Europe. However, gun crime is considerably lower. So...

The facts are not in doubt. Gun crime is worse in the United States than in Europe. The US has much looser restrictions on guns than Europe. The two are clearly linked.

So lax control of firearms doesn't stop them as JohhnyReb claims, does it.

Fortunately, in Europe, nobody wants to reduce gun control. We are happy with the status quo, and our lower gun crime rate.


There is no doubt about this. Stricter gun control = less gun crime.

First of all welcome back Harry, this place just isn't the same without you.
And your claim is meaningless.
According to YOUR charts Jamaica has 215,000 legal civilian guns in the whole country.
Not many when you consider the high crime rate that requires thousands of security guards throughout the country.
215 thousand sure isn't hundreds of thousands that you sensationalize.
Hells bells your chart shows that civilian guns in Germany are 25 million and France has 19 million so Jamaicans 215,000 is minute in
comparison. And what, Jamaicans homicide rate is what 350% higher than Germany or France. (Demographics maybe)
That's not the debate here though as you do have a way to confuse the issue to your advantage.


Yes, your false claims.
When you have have two countries in Europe (Germany & France) with 44 million civilian owned guns and the homicide rate from them are nill.
what does that tell you ? It's not the gun that kills people it is the people that kill people.
Oh gosh, we are back to demographics aren't we.
The area that I live here in the U.S.A. (Everyone has three guns or more each) has a lower percentage of deaths from guns then Europe does.

Starting to see the big picture here.

I knew someone would drop that. That does not make my point any less valid. Institutional mass murder and individual mass murder should not be distinguished. Especially considering the context.


Clearly you ignored the point I was making. Resolving several social issues would nearly eliminate the actual problem.

The gun crime statistics are generally written in a way to support the position of the party presenting the subject.

All throughout Europe there is a pipeline for firearms both through professional smugglers and the boatloads of refugees. I know of several places in Berlin that I can acquire whatever you can dream of outside of government regulation.

London is the same way.

In Australia, if you lived in the outback prior to the national disarmament the criminals would be less likely to burglarize a home for fear of being shot. Now, gun violence is rampant because the criminals can still get firearms from southeast Asia, but lawful citizens have no recourse.

If a gang want to break into your home you can only hope that they do not decide to harm, or kill you.

You also ignore that there are many instances where crime is deterred by the lawful individual being competent and possessing firearms.

I have had several instances that my being armed has prevented my death or injury by criminals, or those with a vendetta.

Something governments try to do and usually fail. Gun control in Europe is however a success.


Most people fortunately do not, including petty criminals. By the way, I would advise against doing so.


Fortunately aggravated burglary is rarer in Europe than over there, perhaps because of the lack of offensive weapons, and when it does happen, it is even rarer for the criminal/s to be armed.

One reason we like the status quo.

Yes, gun control in France has done an excellent job of preventing the man on the train from acquiring a Romanian Draco rifle and prevented the Charlie Hedbo attack so well.


If you didn't catch it in my 1st post, I spent over a year of my life tracking small arms trafficking. I am intimately familiar with where to go and not to go. As I have said in later posts, the issue is not of supply. Well educated and socially adjusted people do not go out seeking to commit crimes, or harm each other. The available supply of firearms will remain constant regardless of regulation.

You also seem to ignore that 300,000,000 is a larger population than that of say Poland and for that many people the numbers are actually lower per capita.

However, all of this is really besides the point. The individual has the right to defend their existence in whatever manner they choose, or do not choose. So long as it does not infringe upon another it is strictly their freedom to do so.

You should ask yourself why so many people in the US see guns as the only option to defend themselves. Definitely something wrong with society as a whole.

Because most people can't afford private security who carry guns to protect the "privileged" against the bad guys that have guns.
But do tell us TheOther, what weapon of your realistic choice would be if you were up against someone with a gun.


Gee jon, just like you preaching about your homosexuality. We must tolerate that because it is of YOUR CHOICE and it does not infringe on anyone in any way. Isn't that what you preach ? An individuals choice ?

You don't want me to judging your personal choice but you have no problem judging my personal choice. (Typical Liberal)
Yet you don't want to tolerate my choice to choose.......wait, I already presented that argument to you.

That is hardly the case. Most people that own firearms do not carry them. As a matter of fact a problem with the community of firearms owners is that they have been brainwashed into forgetting the intended purpose as stated in the Bill of Right is to defend from tyrannical governments and criminals.

Many people only have the mind to use them for collecting and sporting which is why the martial application is not as common as you are led to believe.

The best option for defense is known as avoiding stupid people, stupid places and stupid things. The firearm is a last resort.

Remember that this thread is about Europe, not other places. I'd say there's no 'obsession' with firearms in Europe - in fact quite the opposite. There isn't any significant debate on them because people are happy with the lack of them.

That is from the OP. Nothing about Europeans being desperate to own guns, as I pointed out to PF's expert on all things Polish.