European obsession with firearm ownership.

I am new here. Just read this entire thread.
People who are arguing with johnny reb are thinking of the US in a very overreaching (false) way. There are extremely different cultures in various geographic regions of the US. Carrying a handgun is essentially illegal in New Jersey, yet gun crime is very high in the urban areas there. I mention this state because I grew up there. I now live in rural Tennessee. You could find a handgun in most pickup trucks you see going down the road here, but there is a cohesiveness, respect, and civility among the people, and gun crime is very low (I am confident it is comparable to Europe, if you eliminated the areas of Memphis and Nashville), despite significant economic problems and lack of formal education.

Also keep in mind that this is a very divided nation, culturally, racially, economically, and getting worse as TPTB desperately try to hide the looming economic problems due to rampant debt. There is great fear of massive civil unrest and the government reaction that will follow. I believe there was a recent poll from a reputable source where 29% of people believe that there will be an armed revolution in the near future (I think that unlikely, but the conflagrations on the level of neighborhoods and cities will increase). We have politicians and media who instigate violence among minorities in the cities with propaganda.

Sales of AR-15s skyrocketed after the president began talk of gun control after the school shooting in Connecticut in 2012. There is much more to the gun issue here than what is being discussed in this thread (presence of guns = gun crime in the streets).

A large number of people are expecting very bad things to happen, and it would be naive not to.
The Europeans in this thread arguing from a lofty position of not *needing* guns might be lacking in experience with living among a diverse population where there is extremely high racial tension, and LOTS of assaults of innocent people in their own neighborhoods in the transitional areas between urban and rural. You probably don't know many people who have been robbed, beaten, intimidated by gangs, etc., just because they went out shopping or for a walk. People in the US are keenly aware of this threat because they have friends and family members who have been through it. The macho talk of taking care of business with fists and such goes out the window when the bad guys are not afraid of prison, roam in packs, and target whites (this is not an opinion - they boast about it on social media regularly).

I am an electrical engineer, son of a medical doctor (not forced to live in poverty stricken areas). I have been robbed, and my grandmother was murdered when I was 11. These things happened where it is forbidden to carry handguns (in the Northeast). Where I live now, I don't even hear about these things, except on the news in cities that are 100 miles away.

In short, it's more complicated here than you are acknowledging.

Uncle Mitch, nobody is underestimating the complexity of the issue in the United States. The problem with this thread is in the title. Europeans are not obsessed with firearm ownership at all. Posters who insist that there is a popular campaign among Europeans for the right to own guns are simply wrong.

Uncle Mitch

You are right of course in saying that USA is no Europe and there are major differences in culture and gun culture in particular, however I believe there are often false arguments being used by people talking pro gun in USA, which say about states or cities with gun ban with similar gun death rates to states with open gun policies. My opinion is this - until you have state boarders with 100% checkups, the fact that in some city or some state gun ban did nothing or close to nothing is without meaning. A gun is always close to you, just drop in a car and go to different state.

Also to claim that there is no connection between freedom of owning a gun and FEAR which then leads you to buy yourself a gun, or a gun murder rate is laughable.

Another point often raised - guns are needed to feel freedom to fight agains your own goverment in case something happens. IMHO - another laughable point, at least in USA. A country with best equiped military in the world. What can untrained people, even armed with guns, do against extremely well trained, professionals equipped with gas, night vision goggles, wearing cevlar all around? Nothing. It's just and illusion. And a false argument.

Just a voice in discussion, looking forward to your responses.

Anyway the most fight in this thread is about johnny reb propheting obviously false claim that Europeans want guns, need guns, are obsessed with guns, and that this is universal thinking and a voice of millions of people. This is ********. Europeans don't discuss guns, don't think or care about them. Don't need them.

I also think that is unlikely, given that a drone operator can destroy a platoon of heavily armed used car salesmen without leaving his chair.

There's no suggestion tha there will be an 'armed revolution' in Europe (the last one was almost a century ago) and the 29% in America should be seen in the context of the percentage who are a. Creationists and b. and/or believe in alien abductions.

In Europe people just don't think about this sort of stuff. And gun ownership is not a political or social issue.

"What can untrained people, even armed with guns, do against extremely well trained, professionals equipped with gas, night vision goggles, wearing cevlar all around? Nothing. It's just and illusion. And a false argument."

I won't be too hard on you, since you are obviously a victim of propaganda, but you are missing the very important point that the US military is overwhelmingly conservative. They swear an oath of loyalty to the constitution, not to any politician or government. The notion that the US military, who come from the heartland, blue collar parts of the country, would attack farmers and ranchers in Kansas because they refused to turn in their guns is only given credence by US coastal liberals and people from other countries. It would not go down that way. Mutiny would follow such an order quickly. I have found that this subject is useless to debate, because people like jon357, who have an intense, irrational, emotional bias against the American right (who believe in "alien abductions" <eye roll>) will simply mock and hand wave what I have said, and the argument will become circular.

Also keep in mind that the US infrastructure is designed for domestic peace time and has never been tested otherwise. Transportation, food production and delivery, energy, etc., all run on a fragile "just in time" system. There are former military people who are experts at dismantling such systems, and it does not take much. The leftists who are making the laws and assembling the bureaucracies that are encroaching on the privacy and freedoms of flyover country have made zero preparations for a disruption. They would panic if one supermarket had empty shelves.

I am not looking forward to any of this, nor am I involved. But the "you can't take on a tank with a hunting rifle" argument is trite and tiresome (like it is some kind of revelation lol). I know instantly that anyone who uses it gets his information on this topic from very narrow and biased sources, and hasn't thought it through. There will not be attempts to take on tanks with hunting rifles. The warfare would be 4th generation like what was used against the army in Iraq and Afghanistan, but by higher IQ people with better organizational skills and equipment.

Roger,
Using drones against citizens would instantly polarize the country. The rule of law would collapse. Police and other govt employees would be killed by the thousands, in guerrilla fashion. You are making the same mistake as others here in believing that the number of US citizens who would ally with the govt against the people in flyover country is an overwhelming majority. It is more like half, if that.

Uncle Mitch

I am not following the gun debate, but I definitely remember pro-gun side using the "keeping goverment honest" argument?
Is that not the case?

If what you have written is true, and I have no reason to doubt it, then this argument is even worse. Just stop the flow of goods and turn off the ESPN, and you've got millions of people with guns turning against each other.

Anyway, what about my other arguments?

The USA is mostly devided along party lines.


Remember that the GOP wanted to let GM and other major corporations go down the drain? Have you ever thought about the millions of people who would have lost their jobs under the rule of the party of Mr. "Let Detroit go bankrupt"?


Amongst whom? Tea baggers and preppers? Ever heard of democracy? LOL.


Wayne LaPierre should have gotten life without parole for his speech after the incident.


What you and your alter ego Johnny Reb still don't get is that you cannot compare the US to Europe.

"My opinion is this - until you have state boarders with 100% checkups, the fact that in some city or some state gun ban did nothing or close to nothing is without meaning. A gun is always close to you, just drop in a car and go to different state."

That is not an unreasonable view for an outsider, but as a well traveled 45 year old educated man who has lived all over the US, I can tell you that the gun laws in different states have a profound effect on the presence of guns and the ways they are used (by honest people). Gun culture, at least pertaining to personal carry, does not spill over state borders. Put it this way - I lived in NJ until I was 26 and still visit once a year or so. I have never met a single person who carries a gun in NJ, other than cops, because the people I know are law abiding, and it is illegal. I would estimate 3/4 of the men I know in Colorado legally carry a handgun, at least in their vehicle, some on their person (these are middle aged white engineers). I have never personally heard of an acquaintance being the victim of a crime in Colorado. Not even a single second or third hand story. But most of the people I know in NJ have been the victim of some crime. Some are petty like stolen bicycles, car break-ins, etc., but also many home burglaries, a significant number of muggings and assaults, and a couple of murders, including my grandmother.

It is much, much safer to live in Colorado, where you can carry a gun, than in NJ, where you can't.
And it is important to remember that there is more to safety than the murder rate. It is higher in NJ, but the intangible degradation of the quality of life due to fear of the ever-present bold and brazen anti-social element is very real. Put simply, bad guys have more restraint socially in Colorado. They don't peacock in gangs and glare at strangers at the mall, or go into an upper middle class neighborhood and take over the public basketball court, as they do in NJ.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what's with all these Americans turning up on PF to solely talk about guns?

TheOther,
I don't even have a reply for anything you said. All points were either irrelevant, or made in reply to something you imagined.

"Remember that the GOP wanted to let GM and other major corporations go down the drain?"
I will address that, only to point out that in the US, people who argue about which of the two factions of the ruling party of the banks (Democrat and Republican) is better are generally held in contempt by informed people. The US is finished economically. Neither of these groups has acknowledged that. Neither faction cares about you. They have meticulously framed all of the social and economic issues to divide the country straight down the middle in order to distract the sheep from the theft and transformation of the middle class into debt serfs. Allegiance to either of them is worse than folly.

Wonder why ... ha ha ha.

"Wonder why ... ha ha ha."

Oh that put me in my place. My apologies for arguing with you, sir. pfft.
I have degrees in physics and electrical engineering and am a semi-retired consultant with a cabin and significant land in TN, not a toothless banjo player, genius.

You see this is what I mean. We are people from different parts of the world having a discussion that might enlighten. You start arguing about American political parties, to which no sensible person has any allegiance, then you insinuate that my opinion is invalid because of some stereotype about people with whom I don't even associate. This is where it heads with leftists.

I'll check back later to see if anyone has anything constructive to discuss.

Quite. It's an obsession, but not in Europe and only among one faction over there.

What's your connection to Poland?

"I call that being a wuss."

Reread your original post to me and tell me what is in it that warrants a response. You are just throwing irrelevant stuff at the wall. What do you want to debate with me?

Republicans would run Detroit worse than Democrats? It is Aspergery to say that. Who cares, and what does it have to do with anything in this thread?

"Amongst whom? Tea baggers and preppers? Ever heard of democracy? LOL."
That is so stupid I can't believe I am wasting my time addressing it. The civil unrest in this country is coming from inner cities, where blacks are propagandized and riled up by leftist media. You referring people who are dissatisfied with the USA's leftward slide into oblivion with a baseless vulgar slur derived from a sex act doesn't obligate me to participate with you - that isn't debate of any kind.

"Wayne LaPierre should have gotten life without parole for his speech after the incident."
I didn't hear it, since I don't have a tv, but I strongly doubt he committed any crime, especially one severe enough to warrant life in prison. Another sensational, emotional statement for which there is nothing more to say. He represents gun owners and is very successful at it. Someone needs to do it, because the left would have taken them by now if not for groups like his, and we would be defenseless, as the bad guys won't turn them in.

"What you and your alter ego Johnny Reb still don't get is that you cannot compare the US to Europe."
Johnny Reb and I may seem similar to you because of our shared opinion on the Second Amendment, but we would probably be considered quite different by other Americans. To your point, I would say the opposite. I am pointing out to Europeans that their views on guns are formed in a very different environment than ours (a safer one).

"What's your connection to Poland?"
All of my great grandparents came to the US from Poland, circa 1900.

Your posts sound like the daily newsletter from the NRA combined with libertarian Stossel propaganda and a pinch of Tea Party.


Why is it safer? Exactly... :)


Yeah, I was already wondering if you are one and the same person...

"Your posts sound like the daily newsletter from the NRA combined with libertarian Stossel propaganda and a pinch of Tea Party."
I suppose they do in some ways. Should that back me into a corner?
"Why is it safer? Exactly... :)"
I've already been clear about that in more than one post. You have less violently inclined people as a percentage, and more homogeneity of culture and values. You don't have to be as concerned with everyday violence, so it is natural that you view the right to bear arms differently.

"Yeah, I was already wondering if you are one and the same person..."
You aren't very perceptive then. It should be clear that we are not the same person.

I've got a feeling that there's a section of society (similar to Putin's trolls) in America that just scours the internet looking for forums to post about guns on. This thread already attracted at least two of them...

It is funny that you are making that claim just because it has recently become fashionable to do so. I started seeing this type of lame attempt at disqualification pop up around the internet a couple of months ago.

"Oh he is a paid shill"
You are so trendy.

How else can you explain yet another gun nut turning up on this forum and only posting on this topic? :)

It's true the gun lobby is big and powerful and they do appear to have trolls. Also, don't forget the useful idiots who also fit above criteria.

Uncle Mitch you put to much thought and time into answering these uninformed clueless liberals.
It has become entertainment for me to push their buttons just to listen to them bark. lol
It won't be until Europe starts dealing with gangs in the near future over turf, drugs and race will they wake up.
Like I said, "it's just a matter of time before the Europeans will be begging to own a gun for personal protection."

And with all the new refugees that have grown up living in gun violence it shouldn't be long now.

Well my Confederate friend, I just found this site last night, so I thought I would see if anyone was interested in reading about some real life experiences from someone who knows a great deal about America and guns first hand. As you say, it is not a high quality discussion board. No big deal; I don't mind throwing stuff out there. Maybe someone on the sidelines got something out of it.

I actually found the site while looking for a place to get exposure to some Polish people, but was distracted by this topic right away.

You are correct about the unrest that is coming to Europe. The puppet masters who are footing the bill for these militant hordes to get there aren't doing it just to have them leech off the welfare state - this operation looks to be very serious. Violence is drawing near for these naïve and vulnerable ones. Well, they heard it here.

It is just the start of it with millions to follow.
By the time these countries get the screening of these people down (iris scans, fingerprints, dna) it will be to late.
Once the first bomb or two goes off the Europeans will be begging for gun ownership.

For all of you brainwashed European's that keep insisting how dangerous America is because of gun ownership please understand the truth.

The United States is ranked 3rd in Murders throughout the World.
But, if you remove just 4 cities from the statistics:
· Chicago
· Detroit
· Washington, DC
· New Orleans
The United States is then ranked 4th from the bottom in the entire world for Murders.

Now doesn't that statistic shed some light on the murder rates in the entire United States.
All four of those cities are predominantly Black.

With the Islamic Muslims announcing that London would be the first city in Europe that they take over one would think the citizens would want to be able to defend themselves after the police stations get blown up.

It seems your numbers don't add up - at least not for 2014 or earlier. According to the FBI:
fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/violent-crime/murder-topic-page/murdermain_final

fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/3tabledatadecoverviewpdf/table_3_crime_in_the_united_states_offense_and_population_distribution_by_region_2013.xls

"Of the estimated number of murders in the United States, 43.8 percent were reported in the South."

Wonder why... :)

Their numbers don't add up alright and funny how many us citizens can't even get a visa to visit here. Dont worry bout the muzies the london poles will fight them if the brits won't.

What obsessions? I chirp in just to add that I think Poles should have been able to buy any weapon they want.Many Poles agrees with me and there are even organization fighting for that right.

Exactly my point, what do all those places that you mentioned above have in common ?
All those shootings took place in weapon free zones where weapons are not allowed. :-o
Kind of blows your theory of disarming people works aye ?
With this influx of migrants from terrorist countries that form their little (gangs) communities (turf) and with extreme religious beliefs it will be
soon that Europeans will be begging to own a gun to protect themselves and their families.
Remember ........disarming people allowed the Holocaust to happen.

I'm a tad confused here Johnny, because on post # 175 when you were replying to Delph, you said:

Common place in five major cities Delph which make Europeans think the U.S. is a war zone.
Put five of these cities together and it makes America look like a warzone

Apart from the fact that you managed to ignore TheOther's FBI links showing that it is in fact the southern states that have the highest level of gun crime, and not the 5 cities you keep on mentioning, in your own words you say that Europeans think the US is a war zone.

Why on earth then, would Europeans be begging to own a gun? Would they seriously want Europe to become a war zone too?
You are contradicting yourself with your statements.
And in other news, another day.........another mass school shooting :(

abc.net.au/news/2015-10-02/shooting-at-umpqua-community-college-oregon/6821828

Yep, us Europeans are just dying ( excuse the pun ) to arm ourselves to the teeth so that we too can send our loved ones to school never to come home again. Only in the good ol' US of A.

Perhaps you should read your presidents' comments on that link, because he at least talks sense.
Bit by bit Johnny, your country is imploding, and Europeans sure as hell don't want to emulate that.