European obsession with firearm ownership.

You said "Just stay away from the Black neighborHOODS in the big cities and you will be safe.", that's why I listed those places. Gun violence in the US is so widespread that you cannot avoid it by simply staying away from black neighborhoods. You and I both know that.

Despite: it would only be a matter of time before the first armed teacher, janitor or security guard (as proposed by the NRA) would snap and gun down a whole class room. Good guys protecting the defenseless from the bad guys with guns looks good on paper only.

45 shootings in the States this year so far. Clear indication that firearms shouldn't be as easily accessible as they are now.

Really ! Brits never cease to amaze me with their brilliance.
There are 45 shootings ever week end in Chicago year around alone in the black neighborhoods.
Obama try's to keep that out of the news.


As I stated, another weapon free zone has a mass shooting.
The f*cking security officer there didn't even have a gun to stop this mentally ill person.
What good was he ?
Making that campus a weapon free zone sure made it much safer didn't it. lol (In reality much un safer)


What an imagination (to snap) more likely would have saved some lives if they would have had guns to stop that kook is more like reality.


Have you ever heard him talk about the daily multiple shootings in the black neighborhoods of Chicago where he comes from ?
Never does he talk about that and why is that ?
Perhaps you should read the article about what the local authority had to say about it ?

msn.com/en-us/news/us/oregon-sheriff-who-opposes-gun-control-thrust-into-spotlight/ar-AAf39NN?li=AAa0dzB&ocid=U348DHP

He welcomed gun carrying on campus so people could protect themselves against such attacks.
Why should the decent upstanding common law abiding citizens be denied their constitutional rights because some mentally ill person gets his hands on a gun ?

Why should law abiding citizens be denied the right to protect themselves ?
Why do these mentally ill people keep shooting people in weapon free zones ?
Because they know they won't get shot back at maybe ?
You pu$$ies most likely have never even fired a weapon and would be scared from the noise alone.
So clueless and sheltered you are.

I think he actually meant 45 mass shootings in US schools.
Don't shootings in those black neighborhoods only (or mainly) involve gangs and drug dealers?
We're talking about innocent students here, that's quite different.


Deduction based on what? Another scenario would be: the killer would have killed as many people if not not more (before getting killed (which he did anyway)), because he would have been more nervous by the presence of an armed security officer. Plus, the security officer could have had injured or killed students by mistake. That's another possibility too.

America has by far the highest intentional homicide rate among rich countries, which means that American society is more violent and/or the right to own a gun doesn't really make America a safer place.

Also, we, Europeans, generally don't live in fear as you do in America. Fact is, Europe is generally much safer than the USA.

Obamas finest speech after this shooting. Gonna give it 9.5.

Obama can say, like McMurphy, "Well I tried, God dammit. At least I did that." 295 mass killings (more than four) this year alone.

Mods, please, please change this thread title to "European obsession with American firearm ownership".

So I read in your link.
So you think the answer is to dole out more guns? Leading to even more violence.
In that situation far too many things could go wrong. It's a sad state of affairs when you think that even teachers/school security should be armed. Do you even realise how insane that sounds?


Why are decent upstanding common law abiding citizens being shot and killed in the name of your constitutional rights?
The fact that the guy was mentally ill is immaterial really. Thousands of Americans are being shot and killed by those that aren't mentally ill too. There will always be an excuse used by gun nuts. BTW, he had 13 guns. So much for gun control.


Why should innocent people die as a direct result of your right to bear arms? They didn't get any choice in the matter did they?


It's not just weapon free zones people are getting shot in, just as it's not just the mentally ill who are shooting people.


And it takes a real man to fire a weapon eh Johnny?
We don't need to know how to use weapons in Europe Johnny because we aren't going to be coming face to face with them anytime soon. It really is that simple.

Why do you need to be armed anyway? I'm not trawling this thread, but somewhere on here you said there hadn't been any gun crime where you live for over 60 years. For the ' just in case' scenario? Yep Johnny, you, along with millions of other Americans, are living in fear. At least when I go to bed tonight, I don't have to worry about waking up and finding myself looking down the barrel of a gun.

Anyway, the point of why I responded to you in the first place was to query your contradictory statements.
" Europeans will be begging to own a gun ", and " Europeans think the US is a war zone", are 2 statements which don't really go together do they? You really will have to stop shooting yourself in the foot all the time Johnny.

Fair play to Obama though, I wholeheartedly agree with everything he says here which is taken from my earlier link:-

"We've become numb to this.

"Right now, I can imagine the press releases being cranked out - we need more guns, they'll argue. Fewer gun safety laws. Does anybody really believe that?"

Mr Obama said other countries, such as Britain and Australia, had been able to craft laws that prevented mass shootings.

"Regardless of what they think their motivations may be, we are not the only country on Earth that has people with mental illness or want to do harm to other people.

"We are the only advanced country on Earth that sees these kinds of mass shootings every few months. "

To be honest, I don't see how any sane and rational person can argue against what he's saying.

To sheltered you.....yes, to me No, it's sounds like reality to me.


Yes, the ones Obama sweeps under the rug, the Black & Latino gang bangers who defend their drug turf.
He refuses to address that issue because it is out of control under HIS watch.


The people doing the shootings are not even allowed to bear arms so they break the law to get a gun which proves gun control does not work.

It has nothing to do with the Constitution that Obama has bastardized and ignores.


Sometimes I have to travel to a big crime city. I am to old to run or fight but I can still shoot pretty good.


I don't see why not.
#1 Once the refugees organize and the drug gangs organize to protect their turf Europe will understand that there is no such thing as gun control and will be begging to own one themselves for personal protection when they find out the police only carry weapons to defend themselves, not you.

#2 You can walk/drive across 95% of America and never see a gun strapped on anyone yet Europe has been brainwashed that we carry assault rifles to go to the grocery store.


Only 1/3rd of America does. He is a community organizer and far from a commander and chief.


No but other countries lock them up, here in America the liberals claim that is inhumane so they turned them loose to live on the streets or in their parents basement until they snap.


We are the only country in the world with organized gangs (armed better then the police with illegal guns) that run the HUGE drug trade that supports the inter cities of minorities. (Well I wouldn't say that I rule out Mexico and Columbia)


Because you don't understand how many guns there are in this country, you don't understand the drug problem, you don't understand the rights mentally ill people have, you don't understand illiterate Black & Latino ghetto's, you don't understand the mentality of the uneducated for image, you don't understand a lot because you are very sheltered from reality.

You think like most liberals do.

That's wishful thinking in my opinion. Where there is a mentally ill student shooting 20 of his peers, there will also be a depressed teacher who goes on a killing spree. It's only a matter of time. People like that are completely unpredictable, and no gun in the world will stop them.


Have you ever asked yourself why there are so many guns?

The stress levels in the teaching profession are well known, and adding guns to the mix seems like an utterly dreadful idea. What do you do when a teacher destroys an entire class of children? Do you put an armed guard in the classroom to stop the armed teacher? This is the way to madness.

Madness, NRA style - and before you know it, we will have armed kindergarten teachers, armed staff in the movie theatres, armed baristas at Starbucks, armed bus drivers, armed life guards at the beach, armed baseball coaches ... . Who needs a normal life when we have our Second Amendment? Idiots!

I'm going to keep this brief Johnny because it's clear that you and I are never going to see eye to eye on the subject of guns, and it's been done to death on here before.






There are underlying social problems in all countries Johnny, and maybe in the US they are worse than in others, and I'm not trying to trivialize them, but to me the above quotes are the sort of thing that all gun nuts use to try and justify why they should have guns and remain armed.

Does it really matter if the shooter is a black drug dealer, a person with mental health problems or an illiterate Latino from a ghetto?

They all have one thing in common, they are armed with guns. The end result is the same. Thousands of your citizens dead each year.

Arming people is not going to make the underlying problems America has go away.


In this latest case that's simply not true, the shooter had 13 guns, all obtained legally in the last 3 years by himself and/or family members.


No-one can say for sure yet how this refugee situation will turn out, although admittedly, it's not looking too good.
The police will deal with any problems and if there is escalating violence, then the military will be called out to deal with it.
You seriously think that by giving people guns, it's going to make a bad situation better?


Johnny, in the UK we don't lock the mentally ill up either, unless they are a serious threat to themselves or others.
With mentally ill people sometimes it's impossible to predict what they might do as this recent case shows.
What do you suggest?That all people with mental health problems should be locked up just in case they might snap one day?
I would consider that to be inhumane.


I understand only too well that thousands of your people die needlessly every year, how much more do I need to understand?
Not quite sure what you're driving at with the sheltered thing though Johnny, anyone would think I'd never stepped foot outside my own front door from the way you are talking.


Clearly he hasn't.


Yep


Unbelievable that some people would actually think that this would be a good thing.

Can you imagine that a majority of Americans believe that the NRA has too little or just the right amount of influence?

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/04/24/5-facts-about-the-nra-and-guns-in-america/

Another interesting read: rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-nra-vs-america-20130131

That's a scary read.
That organisation has waaaay too much power.
Even more alarming was point number 4!

But far fewer people in NRA households supported proposed bans on assault-style weapons or high-capacity ammunition clips.

Seriously, what do you need assault type weapons for?
It's a country gone mad.

Right, "your opinion" which carries no more weight then mine.
How many depressed teachers can you produce that have shot their students ? None is the correct answer
It's only a matter of time for most everything so what is your point ?
You make no valid points as you just want to argue to argue.
I am sure that you have been told this before haven't you. lol


Really, please explain why not.


That's my point AGAIN, all those places are no carry zones and those are the places the shootings are taking place. You still don't get it do you ?

One of those shooters was going to kill at a mall I think and when he found out they had armed security he changed his mind and went to a school which was a no carry zone so nobody was able to shoot back. And you still don't get it do you.


American heritage, what this country was founded on, distrust for the police and government, self protection because we know the police can't/don't protect us........need I go on or was that a trick question ?


LOL, yeah I see that you kept it brief alright


Nope but at least I will have a fighting chance not to mention the bad guys avoid the good guys with guns.
Put it this way, if you ever did need one and didn't have one, you would probably never need one again.


One isolated case even though you are wrong because he was breaking the law because you can not carry a hand gun that is not registered to you.


If the occasion arose where you needed a gun to protect yourself or family and you didn't have one most likely you/they would be dead by the time the police showed up. You just don't get it do you.


Aren't the "serious threats" the ones that are doing the shootings ? Why aren't they being monitored or locked up ?
This guy had flunked out of the military, was frustrated by organized religion (TheOther) his mother heard him having temper tantrums in his apartment (TheOther) he tracked mass shootings, posted urging others to watch footage of live shootings, stated "The more people you kill, the more you are in the limelight."

Don't ya think that might put a red flag up that this guy shouldn't have been able to own a gun ?
One would think as I would call him a bubble off.
My point again, gun control does not work as this nutter would have got one from someplace if he wanted one.


I heard only six.


Reality


Have you ever been in a bare knuckled fist fight with someone you didn't know, have you ever been robbed by someone with a weapon, have you ever been threatened by someone with a weapon, has your home ever been broken into, has your wife ever been assaulted, has your children ever been threatened by a stranger.......most likely not as you think the police will be there to protect you from all that if/when it happens.

News flash, the perp will have had his way and be long gone before the police show up.
That is when you will come out of your sheltered shell and beg to be able to own a gun......after it's to late to make a difference.

Not the whole country, just half of it including Johnny Reb. :)


That's why it's called an opinion.


Nonsense argument. How many domestic terrorists were there before Timothy McVeigh?


Sigh. To use your own words: you still don't get it, do you? Why on earth do you insist that everybody should become as paranoid as you and your teabagger friends? Arm the whole country because something might happen ... maybe, just maybe? The kindergarten teacher has to carry an assault rifle because one of the toddlers might turn into a killer? Don't trust anyone ever again because (s)he might try to shoot you? Shoot first, ask questions later? If you don't understand where this is leading, then you are either a lost cause or just plain stupid. You and your ilk are destroying the foundation of our society.


How about the NRA brainwashing you? Why do you even vote if you don't trust the people you vote for?

In Europe I won't be needing one.


I don't know why you insist on lying. Please read this link because it clearly states that all 13 guns were legally registered to him or a family member:

theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action


You just don't get the fact that we don't have guns in Europe and this isn't going to happen.


How can you prepare for something like this? In hindsight, yes, he had problems, and was angry at the world, but so are a lot of people! Impossible to predict who will snap and who won't.


I don't know how easy it is to buy a gun in the US. As far as i know, some states are more lenient than others, but it does beg the question that 13 guns were registered to him and his family at presumably the same address. How many guns does one family need?


Unfortunately yes, but a long time ago.


Unfortunately yes, held up at knifepoint and robbed.
The police and courts did their bit though, and the two men got long custodial sentences, probably because the pair of them had only been released from prison 3 weeks earlier.


The police were there for my son. The pair were arrested within hours, and we were kept fully informed of all proceedings.


This isn't going to happen Johnny. It's not a question of being sheltered, we just don't have the level of violence here that you have in the US. I don't need a gun because no-one else here has them.


Lol

Not yet but soon.


I don't know why you insist on calling me a liar.
Oh the deaf Brit Brilliance once again......'EVEN if a gun is registered to a family member' another family member is not allowed to carry it.

Did that help you get it.
If say I had an aggressive felony conviction I can not have access to a fire arm in my families home EVEN if they own them legally.

See there are all kinds of laws the Libs have passed that don't work because if someone wants a gun it doesn't matter what country they are in they can get one.


6 million Jews said the same thing.


We have laws that say anyone that has been convicted of a violent crime is not allowed to own or possess a gun.
WoW, that law really makes a difference doesn't it. NOT !


Depends if you have a criminal record or not to buy a legal one and very easy to buy an illegal one.


One more than they need.


As I said, the perps were long gone by the time the police got there. They did nothing to save his life. He was very lucky.


I would have given them a life sentence.......no life.


I just heard that same thing from an Aussie yesterday.
And then I just read this in the news this morning...............

An Australian mosque reportedly visited by a 15-year-old boy before he shot dead a civilian police employee in an "act of terrorism" has been raided, police said Sunday, as authorities boosted efforts to tackle youth radicalisation.

New South Wales state police said the mosque in Parramatta in western Sydney -- close to the scene of the double shooting on Friday afternoon --

Now how could that happened in a country that does not let their citizens have guns !
It just proves my point, "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns."

I really don't know what you mean with this 'brilliance', whether British or otherwise. I don't have to be 'brilliant' to spot your lies, because you don't think before posting. Some of those 13 guns were legally registered in his name, some were registered to his family


So yes Johnny, he wasn't breaking the law because some of those handguns were registered to him, which you would know if you'd bothered to read my link.

I'm not going to debate this with you any longer Johnny because we are just going round in circles here. Neither of us are going to agree on this subject and I really don't have the energy to still be flogging it out with you 2 or 3 pages further on.

That's Johnny's trademark... :)


Johnny believes in the NRA nonsense that the "only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun". That's why he rants against so-called weapon free zones for example. What he forgets to tell you though is that in some states people with a concealed carry permit are legally entitled to bring their guns into weapon free zones like educational institutions. So I'm asking, where were the NRA's "good guys with a gun" when the killer went on his shooting rampage in Oregon?

It shows.


"Some" is the key word here.


No Sunshine, he WAS breaking the gun laws.
The ones that were not (even if they were registered to his family) registered in his name that he had in his possession were illegal for him to have in his possession. (There, I talked as slow as I could for you)

He most certainly was breaking the law.


I concur as you are uninformed of the gun laws and the demographics of America.
I predict in the very near future guns will becoming much more popular for self defense in Europe.
Thanks for debating me.

Why? Any reason for us to become as paranoid as you guys?
I'm feeling safe now. I wouldn't if I knew everyone was potentially carrying a gun.

You can't win arguing with gun nuts especially from a long gone society like the states, those people were brainwashed over long periods of time, its hard core indoctrination. You can see how they always tell us we all neeed them because they don't comprehend that we don't and fail to comprehend how broken their society is. Also I belive it is too late to fix it they are stuck in a never ending cycle.

Rofl. Really? Are you being serious? It's an easy access to guns that allowed him to break the law. Here in Europe I wouldn't be able to break it even if really wanted because there's no one around I could borrow or nick a firearm from. Ppl died and all you are concerned about is the minor law. Madness.

On the other hand I pitty those gun_nutters. It's not life. They dwell in a never-ending self-inflicted nightmare with fear and death around every corner. If that's the face of the real freedom to them then I've no words. Either this or they simply lie because owning a gun (paraphrasing Johnny) make them real men.

Very interesting! I'm not entirely surprised he 'forgot' to mention this though. He does seem rather selective on the subject of guns.
The more I hear about the NRA, the more appalled I feel by them. Don't worry though, I'm sure if they can get it through congress, the NRA would be very happy to have their " good guys with a gun" present everywhere and not just in educational institutions.


Johnny, for the last time, some of the guns used when he shot those poor people, were legally registered to himself. End of.


+1


Couldn't have said it better myself NocyMrok

CORRECT ! Finally you got it with that key word "some" the others were family members which were ILLEGALLY in his possession.
(as if really matters in this case)
"All 13 weapons were purchased legally by the shooter or a family member."
OR is the key word here meaning that not all 13 guns were registered to him.


No need for more debate as I think I finally got you straightened out on what you were mixed up with.
Get ready Europe, you are going to need them.

Oh, Johnny is very selective on any subject. Guns, politics, race, women - you name it. Once you call him out with facts that contradict his Tea Party views though, his favorite animals are either weasel or crickets, if you know what I mean. :)

What matters here is that the guy could gather 13 guns very easily. And that's what the law permits. It doesn't really matter who the guns are registered to. The guns were there, he took them and shot at innocent people. Is that your idea of a safe society?


You still haven't answered my simple question: why would we need guns in Europe?

He could gather 113 guns very easily and was mentally ill.


Yup, mentally ill people allowed to run loose in the public where they are a danger.
Talk to the libs about that.


Is personal protection the right answer ?

Many people are. That's why guns shouldn't be that easy to get.


Mentally ill doesn't necessarily mean dangerous. The world is not divided between the Good and the Bad. The sane and the insane.


We would need personal protection if we felt endangered. Now tell me: what's the danger?
Why do you want us to live in fear as you do? Mass shootings in schools and public places occur mostly in America. We're good.