Genealogy and history of Greece and Macedonia

Polish roots and ethno-origins, genealogy and history are important things to Poles, heritage is important, it is something intrinsic and valuable, the catalyst which binds modern people to the cultural riches their past. Greeks value their heritage, precisely the reason why they jealously guard it and protect it from revisionist contamination, the sort of contamination which emanates from SouthSlavic and Turkic sources and the sort which attempts to detach the modern Greeks from their ancestral roots and ethno-origins. Greeks have the right to enjoy their history and heritage just like any other country...free from revisionism and pseudo-history contamination.

Before 1991 this was the case, Greeks enjoyed their cultural heritage but after 1991 since the break-up of Yugoslavia spawned a new Slavic country wanting to use a Greek-Hellenic name for country, nationality, language and ethnicity!

Since 1991, Greeks have endured unprecedented racist attacks on absolutely everything ranging from skin colour, genealogy, anthropology, language, religion, culture and traditions. FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs aided and abetted by Turkics and other Slavs have sytematically worked in common cause to rubbish the Greeks at every level and at every single oppertunity!

Modern Greeks No forgive and we No forget. The Hellenic Republic holds the moral high ground having never used propaganda the same way FYRoM has in the name dispute. The Hellenic Republic has only ever used logic, common sense and timeserved Greek wisdom and sapience, utilizing the Intellectual capacity of classicist scholars as their preferred method for combating FYRoM's Silliness. Todays Greeks are the real deal, they can prove it linguistically and culturally, they can go even further by providing biological genealogical compatibility with previous generations of Greeks. Modern Greeks can prove that they are just as Greek as any previous generation of Greeks and that Includes Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs started a hate campaign against modern Greeks using Racism Revisionism and Pseudo-History as their preferred method in getting their way...Greeks No forget and we No forgive FYRoM's Silliness!

Maybe we are the real deal but we owe our freedom and liberation from the Turks to Slavs like Russians and the augmentation of Greece to common wars with other Slavs like the Serbs.Also the safety net in Balkans is comprised mostly of slavic countries like Serbia and Bulgaria so there is no reason to upset the Slavs and break the historical alliance with them.

1...If you have doubts, look up "Genes, Language and Peoples" by Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza..Worlds Leading Geneticist!

2...We owe our freedom to many peoples, the Greek Independence was popular Internationally, unlike say, the Bulgarian war of Independence with Russia being sole sponsor and benefactor. Greeks shall forever be grateful to the Russians for their moral and material support during the Independence struggle but it is no secret that Slavic interests in the Haemus peninsula were far divergent from the Greek-Hellenic ones.

3...Serbs like the Russians I always considered to be brother people and now, even Bulgarians are getting closer to us. The problem which puts distance between Greeks and Slavs is the name dispute with FYRoM...It is rather Toxic with potential to cause nasty rift between us!

4...FYRoM was not alone in formulating a narrative which attempted to deHellenize the ancient Macedonians from antiquity in order to make them more Slavic...You know that, right!

Our ties with Slavdom are cultural and religious, the Communist era put distance between us for almost three generations, I mean no people to people contact at any meaningful level during that time...now people are free, but the FYRoM name dispute threatens

to put that distance back.

I am not here to break historical alliances, rather to upkeep historical verity concerning Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity...The mainstream historical record shall not be held hostage to Slavist Revisionist Theories Ideas and Conjectures.

The macedonian question is very complicated and largely unsolved.It is part of the Eastern question which was solved by the sword.Let's say these people are in reality Bulgarians.Do we have any interest in claiming so?Does Serbia have any interest in that?Also there is a 30% albanian minority in FYROM with intentions to separate.They even got engaged in military conflict a while ago.Do we have any interest that a third albanian state is formed after Kosovo?Or do we wish the Greater Albania?As you can see there are many aspects in this problem and a strong FYROM is important for the stability of our borders.

1...Complicated Yes...Unsolved from who's perspective. The return of ancient Macedonia, 51% of greater region is back in Greek hands. How and in what other way, does it get solved, unless you have grand Ideas of Balkan Union with whole geographic region of Macedonia Independent and central to it, this reality stands.

2...Many problems were solved that way and legitimized by Treaty!

3...I have always said, FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs are Macedonians but they Not Macedonian in the Greek sense of that word...I am not here to deny them the right to self Identify, rather I am here to make them aware that Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people and they ought to repect that...Greeks have rights also!

4...Yes I am aware of the Albanian componant of their population...all the more reason FYRoM to be on good terms with neighbours.

6...An Independent friendly country on our Northern perimiter...This is what the Greeks are working towards!

First you have to admit their name Macedonia. If you offer them call themselves Skopians or another funny name you can not be their friends.

How can Greeks do that dude ???

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people...to deny that, would put you on a head on collision with world academia!

Greeks No recognize Macedonians that are Not Greek...This is the reference point!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs calling themselves Macedonian is problematic and confusing, Macedonians already exist, they are Greek-Hellenic people...always have been, always will be, Greeks No share their ancient archaic regional tribal name with NoN Greeks!

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs must differentiate themselves from Greeks by adding a prefix/suffix in their name...

1...SlavoMacedonijan
2...GrnoMacedonijan
2...SeverMacedonijan
3...Upper Macedonijan
4...North Macedonijan
5...VardarMacedonijan

...Understand!

pelagon.de/?p=1150

Long live Macedonia!

opera.com/EGEOMAKEDON/albums/show.dml?id=4686502

my.opera.com/EGEOMAKEDON/albums/show.dml?id=4696142

network54.com/Forum/68071/thread/1239258840/The+real+reasons+why+Greece+is+opposed+to+the+name+of+Republic+of+Macedonia

my.opera.com/EGEOMAKEDON/albums/show.dml?id=4686272

my.opera.com/EGEOMAKEDON/albums/show.dml?id=4767522

I have seen greek Macedonians,Slavomacedonians and bulgarian Macedonians and they look essentially the same they have the same habits,the same national dresses,the same music and the same dances.The difference is the language spoken.These people were not described as Macedonians by the ottoman archives but were categorized as Bulgarians,Greeks,Vlachs.The division was made by language or by religion(one who declared faith to the Greek Patriarch in Constantinopole was described as Greek,one who belonged to the Bulgarian Exarchate was a Bulgarian).So there were bulgarophones who remained under the Patriarach and were described as Greeks,there were Bulgarophones belonging to Bulgarian Exarchate,Grecophones belonging to Patriarch,Rumanophone Vlachs belonging to Patriarch also described as Greeks and Rumanophone Vlachs belonging to Romanian church described as Vlachs.

The situation became more complicated when the Macedonian party was grounded in Bulgaria.They distinguished themselves from the Bulgarian nationalists who wanted the annexation of whole Macedonia to Bulgaria.So there were two comitata.One Macedonian,one Bulgarian which sent guerilla troops to Macedonia in 1903-1912 to liberate it from ottoman occupation.At the same time Greeks in order to answer to bulgarian invasion sent also guerilla troops from Greece to the region.So in Macedonia under official ottoman rule there was a guerilla war between Greeks,Bulgarians,Vlachs,Bulgarians in favor of Macedonian autonomy.The Turks favored the one or the other side but generaly they had lost control.At the end the Balkan wars gave 51% of former ottoman satzaks of Thessaloniki,Skopje to Greece,36% to Serbia and the rest 16% to Bulgaria while St. Stephan treaty of 1878 gave 90% of the region to Bulgaria.(it was made under the pressure of Russian troops which had reached Adrianopole and objected and annuled by the strong opposition of Austrohungary which wanted the region for itself.The Ottomans gave later Bosnia as a present to Austrohungary for its favorable attitude during the Berlin treaty in 1878 following the St. Stephan treaty).

So as we can see the situation is rather complicated.No ethnicity had an absolute majority in the geographical region of Macedonia before 1913.Thessaloniki was basically a jewish city and remained so till the expulsion and burning of Shephardi Jews of Thessaloniki in Auschwitz in 1943 in one of their most massive eradication operations.There were regions next to Thessaloniki where no Greek at all lived and they became part of the greek state.Other regions had greek speaking who were Vlachs.So in order to achieve a form of ethnic composition the Greek state decied to move massive amounts from Greek immigrants from Asia Minor and Pontus having escaped the turkish slaughter to the region of Macedonia.After 1.5 million Greeks came there the ethnic composition in the greek part of Macedonia changed from 30% Greeks to 90% Greeks.By the exchange of population agreed in the treaty of Lausanne in 1923 dozens of thousands of Bulgarians moved from greek Macedonia to Bulgaria and Greeks living in Bulgaria came to Macedonia.

Macedonian comitate in Sofia regarded all this as a treason.They reacted and assasinated the Bulgarian King to face next a pogrom by the Bulgarian nationalist party.Later in WW2 the Bulgarians tried to get revenge by annexing whole Macedonia to Bulgarian kingdom with help from German allies.It was funny when in 1944 the former Nazi sympathizers became in one night communists and raised the red army flag instead of the swastika in their camps in Macedonia.The Russians having reached the Bulgarian borders to Greece refused to enter the former Greek borders after this was agreed on in the treaty of Teheran in 1943 but they also refused to accept the turn of Bulgarians form German allies to Russian allies if they(the Bulgarians) did not participate in heavy battles against the Germans.The Bulgarian troops were really placed in Danube front against Wehrmacht and lost thousands of men during operations.

The ones guarding Greek part of Macedonia largely refused to withdraw till 1945 claiming that they protected allied interests.At the same time Slavomacedonian nationalists were active with communist guerillas who at some time managed to get control over Macedonia in 1944 after withdrawal of german troops.The solution was once again given with guns with greek civil war between 1946-1949 where Slavomacedonians fought fanatically for their causes by side of Greek communist guerillas who supported independance of Macedonia till the communists were defeated leaving 100000 dead and a destroyed country.

1...War spoils ? from Ottoman Turks...Greeks ejected the eastern asiatic oriental Musulmen Turk from Greek-Hellenic ancestral lands. The ancient region of real Macedonia returned back to the fold, back in Greek-Hellenic hands!

2...Greece did what Serbia did, what Bulgaria did and what other Balkan nations did. There are No "Ethnic Macedonians," in the same way, there are No Ethnic Spartans or Ethnic Athenians or Ethnic Texans or Ethnic Bavarians. Macedonia(n) is an ancient archaic regional tribal name applicable to Northern Greeks, not to foreign people who seek to usurp that name for their new country, nationality, language and ethnicity...Macedonia(n) is regional-geographic Identity, Not Ethnic, Not National Identity!

The exile of "Ethnic Macedonians"...The was No "exile" and there are No "Ethnic Macedonians." Greco-Slavs, Greek born Slavs who resisted Hellenization willingly and voluntarily left Greece for Canada, USA or Australia for economic and for other reasons. The population exchanges were not "masked" they were organized and legitimized by treaty!

3...The type of harrassment typical of Balkan nations, who have never really learned to tolerate outsiders in the same way they are tolerated, accomodated in the west...The Ottoman Turk put the region to sleep for more than 400 years, Southeastern European people are not as developed in the Humanities fields as say...Britain or France or Germany!

4...Exiled ??? More like they ran because they had to...Greek Communists fled Greece followed by Greco-Slavs, Greek born Slavs who together with YugoSlav Communists attempted to destabilize Greece, this is called Treason in most cases and if caught, they would have faced charges of disloyalty to the Greek-Hellenic state for their Treacherous acts. There was No Exile, this event never occured except in the imagination of those who attempt to mollify treason!

5...Greeks do not recognize Macedonian Ethnicity...People declaring themselves that way could not enter Greece, those that tried were known trouble-makers. Greece like any other European country does not permit known trouble-makers to enter the country,

which country in Europe would do that willingly, allow people to enter the country knowing they would stir and agitate in order to cause trouble!

6...Long Live Macedonia and Macedonians...Greek-Hellenic and Proud.


Very good appraisal of the Macedonian question, however you need to make this point very clear, crystal clear in fact...1.5 Million Anatolian Greeks from the Pontos and Asia Minor were actually settled all over Greece, they were not dumped in Macedonia!

As far as I am aware...600,000 settled in Macedonia and some of them, left shortly afterwards for America and Canada...

...unless you know a different story!

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=65GyLIlNXO4

@ Torq......

Youtube Videos eh!

Did you see the one where God speaks to FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs...or the one where Pakistani Hunza Prince was invited to FYRoM, the Theatrics and the costumes made Europeans aware, the depths to which ex-Yugoslavs were prepared to go in order continue the Pretense.

Europeans were treated to a Theatrical event where they saw other European people [ex-Yugoslavs] prostrated themselves in front of a supposed Pakistani Prince who is said to be of partial Macedonian extraction, descendent of Greco-Macedonian soldiers that fathered Asian children north of the Hindus Kush!

The Kalash peoples are the ones who are of Interest to Greeks as these peoples, there ways, customs, dance rituals and cultivation of grapes for wine making resemble ancient Macedonian ways and customs.

To deny the Greek-Hellenic Identity of the ancient Macedonians is stepping out of the boundaries of the long established Mainstream historical record and into the realms of Slavist Theories Ideas and Conjectures, which attempt to deHellenize the ancient Macedonians in order to make them appear more Slavic!

Return the Balance dude...Greeks have historic rights, you know that, right!

What about FTRoG (Former Turkish Republic of Greece)? Would you like it? Maybe, the Greeks should worry more about their economy and not how another country is called.

We Turks never force Greeks change their name to FTRoG :))


Worry is a weak word for their situation.

But as they always be the spoiled child of west they are just sitting and waiting a miracle will come from the west again.

No...The Hellenic Republic was established as a modern Nation state even before Italy, our name neither clashes nor conflicts with other peoples or Nation states.

FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs wanting to use that Macedonian name for Country, Nationality, Language and Ethnicity use, is problematic and confusing because it clashes and conflicts with neighbouring regional-tribal names and Identities!

There is a solution...The Onus is on FYRoM to compromize, this is the general consensus amongst world bodies such as the UN, EU, USA, Nato and World Academia, where scholars and academics from 23 different countries, including Russia and Poland who fully support and endorse the Greek-Hellenic Identity of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity...

...FYRoM can not continue with it's pretensions towards the Macedonian name in light of the mountains of evidence supporting the Greek position!

The Onus is on FYRoM to find a mutually acceptable name for all of it's disparate peoples, a name they could all be proud...This is what the Greeks are asking for, this is what global politicians expect and this is what the Balkans are waiting for, because on the successful resolution of the name dispute, the Balkan countries Integration into the security and economic structures of Nato and the EU is hastened, FYRoM becomes the gateway for North-South Balkan dialogue-Integration and the benefits that may bring!

You are very generous.

1...Oriental Musulmen Turks No have such powers, except in their imagination!

2...The Greek economy is just right for Greece, for Now. The image of Greece having economic problems keeps Afro-Musulmen away from Greece and keeps them in Thriving Turkey...Why would African, Arabs or Eastern Asiatics Trek all the way to poor Greece when Turkey is doing so much better, in fact Turkey is Thriving and this image attracts ecomonic migrants.

3...No worries!

4...Spoiled child of the west...We hear this often and it emanates from two sources only, Turkic and Slavic sources, where they go that extra mile to ridicule and humiliate Greeks whilst at the same time denigrate Hellenism by contesting it's achievements in the arts and sciences, disciplines developed by Greeks they want to attribute to NoN Europeans, such is their disdain!

You know...It's easy for FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs to switch Identities, we have caught them many times doing this in Forum discussions where they switch from Turk to Serb to Bulgar and even to Greek, very deceptive but they very good at it!

One of the central aspects of macedonian problem is that if FYROM were to be called Macedonia then Greeks who came as refugees to Greek Macedonia after 1923 would be considered non-native settlers that is why the whole issue gets mass opposition exactly from the descendants of them.(the Asia Minor and Pontus Greeks).

Personally I trust Slavomacedonians a lot more than Albanians or Turks the appearance of slavomacedonian women is hot and I have some relatives of slavomacedonian ancestry who look impressive.

In reality some of the first slavomacedonian dictionaries were written by Greeks in the last part of 19th century and even school books were written in slavomacedonian for the minority in Greece till 1936 when the dicator Metaxas closed the minority schools,cancelled the distribution of books and forbid any expression of slavomacedonian language in Greece in fact the ones who do so in remote villages near the borders are still under close surveillance.

Here a copy of the Abecedar one of the first teaching books for children for the slavomacedonian language created by Greek government in 1924.

sites.google.com/site/abecedarsite/Abecedar-KirilicaiLatinica.pdf?attredirects=1

Really ???

I No get it...Slavic can be spoken by Thousands of resident Russians and resident Poles in Greece without surveillance, yet in remote villages near Slavic countries where they speak Slavic Native style, it is, according to you, forbidden or under close surveillance!

Yeah, right!

In Greece there are many foreign languages spoken...Many of those foreign languages are in fact Slavic and that does include the one that was inappropriately Misnamed to Macedonian by Slavist Philologists back in the Autumn of 1944.

It is forbidden and dangerous to speak slavomacedonian language in Greece near the borders.Now it is not legally forbidden(in the '50s the inhabitants had to swear publicly they would never speak this idiom) but you draw attention.

It was forbidden...Not, it is forbidden!

The fifties were close to the forties, the end of the Greek Civil War 1949...No surprise Greeks were sensitized to Slavic speakers, right!

Greco-Slavs...Greek born Slavs, some = disloyal Greeks and some = Reluctant Slavs!

For me, If Greco-Slav Walk like me and Talk llike me and do the things I do, then he is my brother but I shall disown my brother if he switch sides to Walk like Slav and Talk like Slav and then do things detrimental to Greeks and against the national Interest of Greece.

Slavic languages are Not forbidden in Greece...Most Greeks would not be able to distinguish Serbian from Bulgarian let alone distinguish the so called Macedonian language from Bulgarian or Serbian or Russian or Polish!

So lets be clear...If a Slavic speaker in Greece is overtly advocating that he is speaking Macedonian, some Greeks may challenge him because Macedonians speak Greek which is a Centum Indo-European language as opposed to the Satem SerboBulgarian language spoken by some Slavic speakers who inapropriately and sometimes deceptively associate it with the language spoke by Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity.

That deception continues even today where they consider the middle text, the Demotic Inscriptions of the Rosetta Stone to be their long lost Macedonian language!

Greeks shall always clarify the situation as and when they can...and this is why I point out to you the error in some of your posts!

There is only one retarded clash - with the Greeks. No one else gives a damn.


I have no idea what the Macedonians think, but personally I think you can kiss their a*rse with your demands.

1...They clash with Greeks...The most Important clash!

2...You express opinion on that basis!

3...Demand ??? We No demand, we simply make them aware of their pretensions!

Advice...Get Informed, then express Informed Opinion...Understand!

There are no Greco-Slavs.There are slavophone Greeks.

Slavophones are Slavic speaking Greeks...loyal to Greece and Hellenism!

Greco-Slav is my terminology...I use this term to refer to Greek born Slavs, they fall into two categories (i) disloyal Greeks
(ii) reluctant Slavs.

(i)...Disloyal Greeks, as the title suggests, these were Greek born Slavic speakers who resisted Hellenization who left Greece willingly and voluntarily in the 50's for Canada USA and Australia to get Anglicized, be it in speech at least, be it accented as well!

(ii)...Reluctant Slavs, as the title suggests, these were Greek born Slavic speakers who resisted Hellenization who left Greece willingly and voluntarily, they also resist the Slav term, considering it a racial slur, it is this group which is vehemently ant-Hellenic and anti-Bulgarian!

There is nothing to be informed about:



en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia
I mean Phillip II of Macedon called it Macedonia, the Romans called it Macedonia and now very important state of Greece jumps around the people who want to call themselves what they have been for almost 2,500 years. What information I am missing here?

Macedonians themselves say that they are not Greek, but a separate ethnicity, so I don't see why
Greeks can't accept that. Do Greeks find the urge to steal so predominant in their nature that they
crave to steal another nation's identity and ethos? Come on guys - stealing money from the EU,
cheating for years, getting farming funds for non-existing farming areas, receiving pensions on behalf
of people long time dead etc. etc. is one thing, but trying to steal another nation's history, ethos
and identity is taking the game a bit too far.

youtube.com/watch?v=PnGJIP3iwmU

So, how about Greek thieves limit their stealing ambition to EU money, and leave Macedonian
history and identity alone?

FYRoM is Paeonia in ancient geographic terms, only 10% of it [Pelagonia] is real ancient unredeemed Macedonia, bordering Greece!

If they have been there since 2,500 years ago, they are Paeonians...Paeonians were Hellenized by the Macedonians, the Irony eh!

How can you deny me [Greek] my historic rights, prefering to take from me, elements from my cultural heritage to give to Paeonians who got Hellenized by Greco-Macedonians and who later, seemingly adopted the Slavic language ways and traditions

[[by force][by free will]] in essence they Slavicized themselves.

There are many ways in which FYRoM's ex-Yugoslavs could link themselves to their land...but they are not Macedonian, their land is not real Macedonian land, 90% of real ancient Macedonian land is back in Greek-Hellenic hands, only 10% of it is unredeemed.

Now tell me again...how well Informed are you!

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people and they No permit Peonians to take from them their ancient and archaic regional tribal name so they...Hellenized Slavicized Paeonians could use it for their country name, nationality, language and ethnicity!

Greeks have historic rights over the ancient region of Macedonia...

...Paeonia, this name is available for the taking because there are No Paenians around to argue-contest their name with SouthSlavs!

Macedonia is the region.It is like Silesia.There are Czech Silesians,Polish Silesians and German Silesians.There is no silesian ethnicity.This is the official line of Greek and Bulgarian states.

Only Slavic and Turkic Revisionists say these Silly things...The rest of the scholarly world support and endorse the Greek-Hellenic Identity of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity. More than 370 reputable scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, from 23 countries...

[[Australia][Austria][Belgium][Canada][Cyprus][Denmark][Egypt][Finland ][France][Germany][Greece]
[Hungary][Ireland][Italy][Luxembourg][Netherlands[Poland][Russia][Spai n][Switzerland][Sweden][UK][USA]]

...endorse and support the Greek-Hellenic Identity of Alexander the Great and the ancient Macedonians from antiquity!

FYRoM must cease it's pretensions towards the Macedonian name..FYRoM's claims to that Greek-Hellenic name are a farce, the International academic fraternity can see right through FYRoM's Silliness!

Macedonians have always been Greek-Hellenic people, so say the learned peoples of this world...The Evidence is Overwhelming!