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European News and Poland Thread



Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #31

But as it is now, I want The UK out.

Well....the less than the half (by actual surveys) of the british electorate will get their wish!

Not really a sign of a brutal undemocratic Union which forces their memberr, isn't it.

Miloslaw
2 May 2019  #32

@jon357 "Why is that a problem for you?"

I was never asked if I wanted to join and don't want to.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #33

Yeah...the basic democratic failure...the rule of the majority! :)

Miloslaw
2 May 2019  #34

Not really a sign of a brutal undemocratic Union, isn't it.

They haven't let us leave yet.......... :-)

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #35

Heh:) Good joke! :)

Crow
2 May 2019  #36

Merged:

Poland and Eurasian Union



Interesting development of relations between Poland and Eurasian Union. We should discuss, does that cooperation cover only relationship of Poland, as EU member, with countries like Belarus that is member of Eurasian Union or do we speak of possible Poland`s Eurasian Union membership.

Eurasian Economic Union and EU Members Begin Belt and Road Cooperation
silkroadbriefing.com/news/2019/02/15/eurasian-economic-union-eu-members-begin-belt-road-cooperation/

Belarus, a member of Eurasian Economic Union (EAEU), has begun cooperation with Poland, of the European Union, over infrastructure projects as part of China's Belt and Road Initiative.

The Case for Leaving the EU and Joining the Eurasian Economic Union
silkroadbriefing.com/news/2018/06/29/case-leaving-eu-joining-eurasian-economic-union/

There are also concerns about the viability of the Euro. Several EU countries are not part of the Eurozone .............. Poland, ..............


Polonia101111
2 May 2019  #37

Interesting... Very interesting...

Spike31
2 May 2019  #38

How can you ignore and throw away the last decades of peace so easily? Do you take that all for granted?

What guarantees peace in Europe are NATO and American bases in Germany. It has nothing to do with the EU.

jon357
2 May 2019  #39

I was never asked if I wanted to join and don't want to.

There was a referendum a few years ago; the results (unlike this last clusterfuck) were decisive.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #40

What guarantees peace in Europe are NATO and American bases in Germany. It has nothing to do with the EU.

Question is if there would still be a NATO and american bases in Germany without the EU and Germany's firm inclusion innit...

One bit pillar of the longstanding peace is the cooperation between former arch enemies. Without the EU there would had been no healing, no re-building. The tensions would be there as always. Things like being members in the same military organizations would be doubtful at best...

Even so Germany's membership in NATO is not undiscussed by many Germans. Some would like to leave to NATO behind and move closer to Russia...a german Sonderweg.

Without the EU everything would be possible, and not all of these possibilities bode well for the future of our countries. But as boring and difficult and less than perfect the EU sometimes is, it is safe. That has been proven in the last decades. Don't throw it away so easily!

mafketis
2 May 2019  #41

Without the EU there would had been no healing, no re-building

Don't be silly, the EU only dates from 1993.... The heavy lifting was done by earlier less ambitious incarnations that actually served a purpose. The current version seems like mission creep to me... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_creep

In it's current incarnation the EU is Toynbee's universal state that gets bogged down in over-ambitious and under-planned projects (Euro, expansion) that is doomed to failure as those in charge are more interested in keeping their positions that they no longer merit and turn against the populations they are supposed to serve (brexit, gilets jaunes)

Spike31
2 May 2019  #42

Question is if there would still be a NATO and american bases in Germany without the EU and Germany's firm inclusion innit...

I don't think this decision is for Germany to make. The US wouldn't let you off the hook so easily. And the pressure from the UK and Poland to not let Germany off chain would be strong. But to be honest it is for your own good as well.

Germany is not just like any other European country which can do whatever they please. The big players in Pentagon understand that.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #43

I don't think this decision is for Germany to make. The US wouldn't let you off the hook so easily.

You are looking at this history through the EU lens....WWII did end 1945. In the last more than 70 years alot happened..and without the EU even more would had happened.

The EU had been always in a firm partnership with the US, without it it would had been back to alliances pro and contra...with Russia an influential player. The EU with it's atlantic bridge had been always a great enemy...without the EU all bets would had been off!

Germany is not just like any other European country which can do whatever they please.

No country can do whatever it pleases..get real Spike. It has interests and needs for support, with that come compromises and obligations, treaties...the same as within the EU.

The big players in Pentagon understand that.

Imagine the Pentagon wants to keep Germany on its side for every price...they would support Germany whatever it wants to do, even ruling Europe...as long as it is the foot in Europe for the US, the head quarter against Russia...Add to that the traditional allies and satellites...

Ironside
2 May 2019  #44

WWII did end 1945. In the last more than 70 years alot happened..and without the EU even more would had happened.

Let set it straight - without USA hegemony that EU and Europe would speak Russian. All those fancy theories are just made up stories. EU or EEC were possible due to the USA presence and power.

Before you can look into a future you should know you past without some rose tinted glasses. If you fail to understand the past, it makes you confused about the present and delusional as to the future.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #45

Let set it straight - without USA hegemony that EU and Europe would speak Russian.

....there is no hegemony...there is a cooperation within NATO.

Without european NATO members there wouldn't be the US in Europe.

Without the EU in Europe there would be blocs again...pro US and anti-US....pro Russia and anti-Russia...Germany alone would concentrate on their own advantages. If the US presence would be seen that way is doubtful.

Face it: The fact that most european countries are now also being members of the same organizations kept the peace. Without the EU there would be no such thing!

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #46

Don't be silly, the EU only dates from 1993

Huh?

Who is Toynbee?

I would be careful with the slogan "doomed to failure"....I believe the Brits said the same since 1953 :)

More than 70 years of continous success can't be that of a failure..

Ironside
2 May 2019  #47

there is no hegemony

tsk tsk ..... there is a power struggle between German, France and USA inside the alliance. I was talking more about the past and the very reason for existence EU and no wars in Europe for so may years. USA hegemony and cold war. Not some wishy washy mystic reasons you propagate.

Ironside
2 May 2019  #48

Who is Toynbee?

Geez do you read NOTHING?

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #49

*bows head in shame*

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #50

USA hegemony and cold war. Not some wishy washy mystic reasons you propagate.

The US was in still is in Europe because the Union as a whole chose to stay on the side of the US, hence allowed US troops on European Soil and prepared to go to war together.

That was the reason for the cold war and the deafeat of the communist bloc in the end.

Without the EU + Nato there wouldn't had been been such a strong bloc, no cold war (only many european countries chosing different sides) and probably no defeat of the communist bloc.

Without being a member of the EU, it is not so clear cut that Germany would be on the side of the West at all.

Hard facts, Iron....nothing mystic about it.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #51

Just a glimpse into how the history could had gone without the deep integration of Germany in NATO and EU:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_Note

Dirk diggler
2 May 2019  #52

Pulease Russia would steamroll the EU at will if it wanted to. And even NATO generals admit that.

The us isn't in Europe because it cares so deeply about European peoples and countries. That's not how military politics works in the us. Protecting some country from Russians, north Koreans, Venezuelans, Iranians or whoever is merely a pretext. It's about lobbying to get money from companies that support the us military at home and abroad. Even a dude with a high school education can go make over 100k as a welder or cook, 150 200k if they have certain skills. And that's small money compared to the contracts given out by us government for everything from security to electrical work to logistics

Spike31
2 May 2019  #53

Pentagon wants to keep Germany on its side for every price...they would support Germany whatever it wants to do, even ruling Europe

Or the US could simply do it old-fashioned way by using the military presence in Reich to enforce their will. Do you really think anyone in Europe would cry over Germany being disciplined by the US?

Nobody, not even France, wants Germany as a dominant force in Europe.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #54

Or the US could simply do it old-fashioned way by using the military presence in Reich to enforce their will.

No, they won't....an occupation of such a great country against the will of the population?

Is that the dreams of the nationalists nowadays? Not to speak off that Germany could always call upon the big russian bear for help in such a case, making the West look really bad...

Do you really want a re-run of what led to WWI and WWII? And why the hell do you think that would be good for Poland? What kind of a nationalist are you???

Nobody, not even France, wants Germany as a dominant force in Europe.

Nobody wants Germany as the dominant force in Europe, the Germans eve less than everybody else.

But without a strong Union there is no way around it...Germany with its size and population and industrial power will never fall between the "...also run's". And then there will be alliances again, rivaling hostile blocs...across Europe....do you really want a repeat???

Spike31
2 May 2019  #55

No, they won't....an occupation of such a great country against the will of the population?

It has happened in the past so it is clearly not impossible.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #56

Not by the US....it has been founded on other values. The first tanks running over protesting civilians all over the news and the USians would demand for the troops to leave!

Not to mention to show how absurd the "free West" has become...making it alot easier for Moscow! Forget about winning the Cold War.

But I have to ask you again Spike...do you really want a re-run of Europe pre-WWI and pre-WWII?

When the countries of Europe don't share a common Union...be members of the same economical and military blocs, they will build their own again. You know how it did go...blocs and alliances across Europe, hostile and fighting each other...that is the other alternative to a big common Union.

Was that really that great? Especially for Poland? Why do you want that again?

I mean, I understand that you are hating Germany...but why do you hate your own people so much?

10iwonka10
2 May 2019  #57

Of course, a diminishing number of Brits also tolerate the Tories. It's a mad world.

Corbyn as alternative ? :-(

Spike31
2 May 2019  #58

History never repeat itself in the exact same form. Maybe only as a farse. But in the age of nuclear weapons that would be a tragic farse.

Germany politics is all about soft power now. Without the ability to threat your neighbours with a military agression to do as you say you seem to be totally lost. Even your biggest pro-EU argument is that without it Germany would quickly turn back to 1930's politics (which was equally bad for you and the others around you). To me German mentality is barbaric.

And you also seem to be unable to learn that threats and intimidation doesn't work, and never worked, on Poland. You cannot understand a mindset of free people.

Bratwurst Boy
2 May 2019  #59

Oh cut the crap!

*epic eyeroll*

If your main argument against the EU is your pathological anti-germanism than you are nothing more than a sad pathetic piece of ****. I'm just glad that your kind is so rare even between the EU-sceptics.

Come back when you have real, rational arguments you want to discuss.

Spike31
2 May 2019  #60

You've proven me right in just one post.

And I think now, when the emotions cool off, you feel stupid about what you just wrote. I know I would, given that I would ever write such a post.

And not, I'm not "patologically anti-German" since I'm friends with Poles of German origin and had few of them at my school. Polonized Germans who lived in Poland for generations and absorbed most Polish qualities. Polonization works well because it's not enforced and because Polish way of living doesn't go against human nature.


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