IF EU let refugees to Europe

delphiandomine

Thanks for the explanation, very sad indeed

Do you think they will get on Hungarian buses? They seem to be completely paranoid right now - and it would be a normal Orban tactic to drive them straight to the nearest camp.

"Police told the rightwing HirTV channel that they were waiting for the press to leave before taking the migrants to the camp at Bicske"

You need to consider how the Syrians feel, faced with more uniforms. The uniforms in their own country would be there to harass them at best, and you expect them to co-operate?

What the hell are all those cops doing anyway? Talk about overkill. What are the refugees going to do? Start killing each other?

And where are the health care workers ? And Police should not be doing "humanitarian work". How long have you lived in Poland Delph?. Even the police here in Poalnd are not generally in the business of helping the population, but to harass at the slightest chance and accuse you of "drinking alchohol" as if drinking a beer in the pub in the evening were a crime.

Of course there is good everywhere but those Hungarian pigs look like their **** stinks. The Hungarian lack of proper care and reaction is close to criminal neglect of a potentially dangerous situation. No doubt about it, and questions need to be asked, and Orban summoned before his peers and made to grovel.

And of course the refugees are scared of camps. I would have thought that is soddin' obvious.

That's the point: almost half of the Germans don't want them either, but their government won't give them a choice. Until the next election that is, when the German populace will probably vote for some hardcore right-wingers.

theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/02/refugees-welcome-uk-germany-compare-migration

Quote:
"By the end of last week, the German interior ministry had recorded 336 assaults on refugee shelters since the start of the year - over a 100 more than in the whole of 2014. The majority of these attacks had a rightwing motive."

Do you suffer from dementia?, you are not making any sense. The Dublin Agreement states that asylum seekers are registered and processed in the first EU country that they reach. If the Hungarians do not do this, the next country, Austria or Germany, can send them back to Hungary as they have not been processed The Hungarians are doing exactly what the EU has asked them to do.

The so called refugees do not want to register in Hungary as it is a poor country and will not give the same benefits as the richer countries. Once they have their fingerprints taken, they are Fuucked. They have to stay in Hungary, a SAFE country.

Stop with the leftist, bleeding heart, diatribe and realise what is going on. This is planned and orchestrated, yet, only the central European, leaders, seem to understand what is happening and are not falling for this BS.

Yes, of course I know that. But agreements break down all the time don't they? Germany stated that any Syrian who reached German soil would be considered for asylum, and the Hungarians decide to play policeman - which fits their mindset perfectly.


And you know that how?


I feel to see what is leftist about helping these people. You are in fact saying that Syrians left their homes, businesses, spent thousands of Euros of paying traffickers etc, left their families and friends, any future there, risked harsh climates, bandits, etc.... and risked a horrible death at sea - to go on a little European tour?

All 200,000 of them. A possibility I suppose, if you are a Hollywood script writer.

Now, who needs an education here? And in the meantime, we have to suffer your "rightist" diatribe. And all the time, these humans are suffering. Something, you of Polish extraction, should ask your grandfather about. And get some humility into the bargain.


Avalon, that is why social benefits have to be linked to GDP and paid for from an EU raised mandatory charge. That removes the need or excuse for refugees being uprooted immediately to a different European location.

And when employment restrictions are finally lifted, we will get Syrian engineers, Syrian doctors, Syrian farmers, Syrian bus drivers, Syrian shipbuilders, Syrian clerics, Syrian lawyers, Syrian alchoholics, Syrian wife-beaters, and Syrian long term unemployed . The whole gamut. Just like Europeans in that respect.

But I suspect they will be a success, just as Asians in Britain have been shown to be hard working and high achievers statistically speaking compared to other minorities - though MigrationWatch would have you believe otherwise with their skewed studies/aka lies. The truth is not far away. Just consult the CBI (The Confederation of British Industry)

not to mention,he sailed from Turkey,wealthy muslim state,not from syria...put his family in danger instead building life in Turkey...but them German socials...too tempting

is it hard to get Syrian or Nigerian,or somali citizenship? tired of working

Muslims have tried conquering Europe for centuries. Now we're just letting them in. It's time the V4 group starts making contingency plans when the borders to Western Europe will have to be closed.

America's share ???????
Why is America turned to when other countries are in need for help yet America gets the ungrateful bad mouthing when we bail your helpless asses out ?

America is the number one donor of foreign aid in the world by far. No other country even comes close.
America gives over $50,000,000,000 billion year in and year out to foreign aid.
America IS NATO that protects your country with it's military that is paid for by the U.S. taxpayers/citizens.
America has over 13 million illegal immigrants living in America with most of them collecting welfare that they never paid into, working for cash and sending it back home across the border home paying no income tax on those earnings, filling up our schools taking away education from our children and burdening the prison population system horribly at the tax payers expense.

Don't quote me but I think the United States has already taken in around 300,000 Syrian refugee's over the years.
75,000 Muslims from Syria are being surreptitiously migrated into the United States.
Ostensibly, the Muslims are purported to be refugees seeking relief from the war-torn Middle East.
Considering the Middle East has been ravaged by warfare for 1,400 years or longer, the government's plot to infuse tens of thousands of Syrians into the United States will do little more than transplant violence from there to here.

Same thing is going to happen in Europe.
The rest of them that are coming are strictly coming to put their noses in the public trough. (Welfare scamming)
So call me a racist and bigot all you want, I have every right to be one under these circumstances but don't ask why America isn't paying their share.

If it wasn't for America "NONE of YOU" would have the freedom's that you enjoy today.
The questions should be, "when is someone going to pay back America for all they have given and who is going to help America out when we need helping ?"

Dougpol1

You were trying to discredit my argument why Gulf Arab states are not helping...

Don't majority of Syrians speak Arabic and aren't most Sunni Muslim? I know Syria is quite diverse with Sunnis, Alewis, Shia, Yazidis, Christians, Druze, etc. I know Arabic can also vary between regions (Arabic of the Levant is different than other regional varieties). However, Sunni Syrians are connected through religion, language (in general), and some cultural elements to the Arab states in the Gulf. I think it's a valid argument to bring up the question why Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States are not helping (whether they are democracies or not).

Egypt is hosting many Syrians from what I've read (is Egypt a true democracy?) as are Turkey, Jordan, and Lebanon. I don't understand why you are so dismissive of this point.

In my comments about travel documents, I wasn't thinking Syrians would be lining up for passports distributed by Assad's regime. I was thinking that UNHCR should be helping with some sort of travel documents for the Syrian refugees in Turkey for example. Travel documents can be an issue based on some reports I've read. This is not something trivial.

Lastly, I think national governments themselves should be deciding on the numbers of refugees to help. I think you see the refugee crisis as providing "temporary" shelter and necessities of life in Poland or other countries. If these were "temporary" stays, I would agree with you. However, I think most refugees came to stay in the EU permanently. As a result I think countries themselves should have the final say on the numbers and other criteria if they have newcomers over the long term. I think central Europe does not want to repeat the mistakes in the West with ethnic ghettoes, joblessness, and other problems. Sweden is very generous to refugees, but so what? Over the long term, some of these newcomers don't integrate and can't find jobs in Sweden, and this leads to other problems in society overall (rise of right wing parties and more social tensions). How exactly is creating this situation helping anyone (the host country or the newcomers)?

I don't think you realize all the practical details when someone arrives as a refugee. Here is a link in an organization in Canada that explains what involved in costs and other areas when you sponsor refugees privately in Canada. I KNOW it's different in Poland or the EU and the link is only for PRIVATE SPONSORS in Canada. During the current crisis, the governments would use their own resources in the EU. The purpose of the link is to show you that there are actually a lot of things to consider, and this is over the long term, and multiplied by thousands...

lifelinesyria.ca/sponsor/
By the way, emotional outbursts or obnoxious statements don't help your arguments (I know I'm not perfect either, but I really try to see issues from multiple perspectives).

The Gulf States are actually further from Syria than the EU border.


Same here. Not a 'guest' at all. In any sense.



This is absolutely spot on.

By Gulf states, I mean Saudi Arabia too. It's only separated by Jordan from Syria.

It's very untypical and there are already a huge number of people from the other side of the border there. Also, the population centres are not near the border - and people aren't going to walk across a thousand miles of scorching desert.

Are you sure? This map shows otherwise:
google.com/maps/@33.7457959,39.0052902,4z

Saudia Arabia is FAR closer to Syria than is Greece, and the entirety of the Arabian peninsula is closer to Syria than are Germany or the UK.

Five Gulf nations have taken in exactly ZERO refugees: Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, and Kuwait.

Abdullah Kurdi, the man whose wife and children died while attempting to cross to Greece has this say: '"I want Arab countries - not European ones - to see my children," said Kurdi, according to Turkish newspaper Today's Zaman. "And because of them to help people."'

source:
latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-britain-cameron-refugees-20150904-story.html

jon, if you was in charge of taking immigrants in all European countries, what would you do? What would happen in a perfect for you world?

Jon357
I totally don't understand why you are trying to excuse Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. If we are talking about hundreds of thousands of refugees, many countries should help.

Fyi... There is also a war in Yemen just south of Saudi Arabia. The Saudis are bombing the hell out of Yemen against the Houthis. Will it also be Europe's responsibility to take Yemeni refugees from a Saudi-manufactured war?

Who's trying to excuse anything? The refugees aren't in the Gulf States; they're in Europe. That is the direction they've travelled in and where they are now. Introducing the Gulf is a red herring.

Unless you propose dragging 800,000 people onto planes and taking them there (which will not happen), the crisis is a European one.

@Random, I agree that wealthy gulf states are not doing enough (borderline on doing nothing at all). They are terrified of the prospect of Syrians bringing with them modern, moderate and relaxed interpretations of Islam. They are terrified of the openness that Syrians have lived in for thousands of years. They are terrified of having their short and unglamorous history eclipsed by several millennia of Syrian history. What can one say.

On the other hand, Europe is built on a different set of values. That is why the refugees are coming here to Europe and not going south to the gulf.

Anyway, around 17:00 yesterday two old friends of mine were killed by government planes bombing a residential area - in an area entirely inhabited by non-muslims. Goes to show the regime of Assad is getting entirely desperate and giving up the earlier propaganda of protecting minorities in Syria - which was a big lie in the first place.

The problem is needless to say huge and dramatic but needs to be solved asap. Right now, we need to take care of all these refugees. In many western European countries, local governments and private citizens are acting to help (offering accomodation, clothes, food, hygiene products....) and it's only the beginning.

The EU as an entity have decided to help and therefore all the 28 countries shall. The EU are not a supermarket or a restaurant. When joining the EU, any country has to take the whole package. I have just heard a German minister (sorry I did not catch name) say that countries refusing to help shall be withdrawn their subsidies (best option! :))

This is the scary thing. Merkel seems to have completely lost her head over this - it's asking for a huge vote for the hardcore right in the former DDR, who don't have the same guilt-complex as the rest. I'm also not convinced that it won't lead to massive social unrest - this "Come one, come all" policy is beyond insane when it's only France that supports them.


Hungary is safe. It might have a nasty nationalistic tinge to the politics, but in general, it's a safe country.

I do think that this whole situation shows that there should be a common EU response and that countries such as Germany shouldn't be allowed to act unilaterally. On one hand, we have Hungary trying desperately to defend the Schengen border - on the other hand, Germany is encouraging people to come regardless of the Schengen border. It makes a total mockery out of the whole thing.

For what it's worth, Merkel appears to have triggered this whole thing by telling the Hungarians that they need to register them first.

Indeed, but whatever the EU or UN do won't make them change that.


The support is quite heartwarming - and yes, we need to act ASAP.

Jon357
it's not a red herring. Who says ALL refugees should be going there? You obviously are not understanding what I'm saying (I don't usually talk in absolutes; I usually qualify what I write by using words such as "some"). I think that the rich States of the Gulf should make a gesture of easing visa regime for Syrians. They could also help to fly some refugees and house them or provide other support. I am being hard on Saudi Arabia because they do play a part in the Syrian conflict (actually in other conflicts too).

Actually Polsyr's first paragraph explains the situation much better. Thanks and sorry to hear, Polsyr.

They absolutely should. I think everyone is rather bewildered why they're sitting by and doing absolutely nothing, especially countries such as Qatar that are spending a ridiculous amount of money on the 2022 World Cup.

It's entirely a red herring, because (as ever with the gulf) nothing anyone else does will change their mind. We can try, but while we're waiting the problem just grows and it is immediate.


With good reason, however they just won't do a thing, no matter how much people think they should. With KSA, normal rules do not apply.

@Delph: I believe too that Merkel made a huge mistake inviting them. I suppose she is only concerned about her declining population. German women have very few kids and as a result, Germany shall need 6 million new workers by 2030. I don't call that "generosity" from Germany but nevermind they'll be better off in Germany than in war torn countries.

As a result, it's a whole mess.

Yes, it's entirely motivated by German interests and nothing more. But the way that it's been done is completely stupid - they could have established transit camps in Macedonia and taken them in an orderly manner from Macedonia straight to Germany without any of this mess. Macedonia wouldn't have minded if they were paid for it, too.

I also think Germany has a lot of historical baggage so they have to appear very accommodating in this crisis. It is also about image.

@Delph: ps: since Merkel has invited them, maybe she can take them all and the problem shall be solved ;).

@Jon: a lot of private citizens are very active now but unfortunately in each country, at least 1/2 population are against taking refugees (as per yesterday's poll, in France, 52% are against and I heard this morning that Austria could not take a lot of refugees because of its political context). Considering that there is an average of 1 refugees' center burnt down each day in Germany, I am not sure that Merkel makes sense...

@Random: German population is declining (very low birth rate) and by 2030 Germany shall need 6 million extra workers to pay for retirement. It is not pure ... generosity ;)

Sure, refugees need help but I am not sure EU (all 28) are taking appropriate measures.

Sorry, the idea of suspending funds to countries refusing to help came from Austria's Chancellor and approved by German Minister of the Economy. If EU means to help, ALL 28 members shall.

The thing is that I don't think Germany has any sort of majority in favour of doing so. Off the top of my head, the V4 countries + UK, Lithuania, Latvia, Denmark and Croatia will be against it for certain.

Excellent. I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. I was pointing out that if we look at the transcripts of the Arab League Convention and watch the videos of proceedings, we see that certain countries hate each other, for all sorts of reasons, tribal, historical et al...and take the greatest pleasure in watching their "brothers" squirm. Gaddaffi famously called them out for what they are. It takes one to know one - the tired old cliche.

Of course the Arab States should act. But there are millions of Syrians in Egypt at this moment. They have no rights, no home, and no right to work. Shall we parachute into the Suez canal and tell those perky Egyptians to sort it out. I am almost old enough to remember the last time we tried that one.

We don't here much of life in Saudia Arabia, as it is a police state, but why on earth would a (cultured) Syrian want to change one army state for a police state? Can you blame them?

The only Arab country that is "safe" and comes out of war with any real credit is Jordan.The Arabs et al seem to think they are untouchable in every way. Not surprising, when they had the likes of George Bush senior sniffing up their bum cracks.

They will do nothing.

The Turks are doing a hell of a good job, although they and the Syrians are no brothers. Lebanon is creaking, and it's very good that Assad is back in his cage, or we had have a Druz war revisited (us old boys remember the devastation of that one sponsored by his dear daddy, nightly on TV)

The rest of the Arab states are only there for second rate British footballers to go and parade up and down the concrete jungles with their bling and their peroxide using wives.