Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 21

Never gonna happen.
The west will not fall for Russian lies this time.

Hehe, this is a good point. Too many.

For most of human history, people were citizens of imperial states. National states are a complete modern aberration.

So far, the result of their existence has been pointless and cosmic bloodshed.

Looking at the picture below, guess where all the trouble started?

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....well, that's probably a point for the new Unions.....like the EU?

If membership is voluntary....and all have the same rights.....

(I for one like to read about the HRE and old Prussia.....several nationalities in one, sometimes quite successful, Empire! It worked...for awhile...)

But I guess the member cultures need at least to be similiar and compatible, and there is a growth limit. A point when such a Union stops being managable...

Hey, don't blame me--I am still a faithful Kaiser und Koenig loyalist (Gefreiter Kania, remember? :)). Austro-Hungary was the second best empire in the world's history after the Holiest Rzeczpospolita.

It (A-H) was deeply Catholic, largely Slavic, unashamedly aristocratic, and encompassed most of the greatest region in the world - Central Europe.

The whole world started going downhill since 1. The partitions of Poland. 2. The Fall of Austria-Hungary.

Poland was reborn in 1918 as one of many abominable nation-states. She should have been reborn as an empire or not al all.

The west will rot from within and from migrants.

Soon, Russia will be your asylum destination.

Memo to Russia: Do not take these morons. They will do to you what they did to themselves because Western stupidity is incurable.

They know they are fvcked but still take in more migrants.

Moscow insists that the status of Crimea, the city of Sevastopol, and the four former Ukrainian regions which voted to join Russia in 2022 is non-negotiable.

Russian officials have emphasized that recognizing the "reality on the ground" is essential for achieving a sustainable peace.

Simple and clear like the Liberty Bell ...or every treaty, including those with American Indians, are null and void as coersed and under threat.

Why does Trump think he has a say in something he has no ownership over? It's almost like he's making himself busy with pointless things instead of focusing on his own country who are desperately calling out for his aid.

The USA will never have a say in whether Crimea is Ukrainian, Russian, or whatever else they want it to be. The matter is up to the current owners of the land and the people who are living there.

Couldn't say it any better...Just imagine India deciding who owns Puerto Rico.

Nation States have provided higher standards of living for greater proportions of populations than any other state form. The bloodshed comes when empires try to expand against each other as both world wars (and the third world war whose prologue we're living in now) are all caused by empires, not nation states.

I could imagine it.

Lacking a state between Tsarist Russia Imperial Germany lead naturally to conflict. Both having potential for massive armies and no buffer state in between they could co-operate against lead to their own demise in ww1.

What both states sought after together, lead eventually to their own doom. Both in ww1 and ww2

From a national, state and strategic objective. The existance of the Polish state. Allied or not is imperative to not let Germany invade Russian lands or Russia invade German lands. It's a lesson not yet learned in both countries.

The amount of casualties and losses has lead to a general tendency to abandon conquest of Europe (Germany due to it's defeat in 1945 and unwillingness to return to it's past glory as fast as possible. And Russias more defensive approach to Europe until the Ukraine war)

I'd say we have learned it pretty well. Nobody in Germany wants to invade Russia, we are allied to Poland and a Russian invasion of Poland would probably be the one scenario which even most of our die-hard appeaser would consider a casus belli. Because if Poland falls, the Russians are at the Seelower Highs again.

That's good news for both people like @pawian and @Ironside and @Torq to read.

@Velund and @Bobko can't with truth in their heart admit the same however regarding Russia I believe.

Admit what, exactly? Not sure I follow.


This is a facile, and ultimately unconvincing argument. History does not support this view.

Specifically during their respective "imperial" periods, Russian and Germany were more often allies than enemies.

In the 1700s, during the "Partitions", we worked together to carve Poland apart. In that period, Poland was clearly not a "buffer", but rather a victim of coordinated imperialism.

During the Napoleonic Wars, Prussia and Russia were allied during key moments. When Prussia was not aiding Russia, was only because of pressure from Napoleon.

Prussia and Russia were both the principal actors in the Congress of Vienna. Austria was the clear "junior" partner within the Holy Alliance, while Prussia and Russia were the two heavyweights. Together, the three powers policed Europe against liberalism for nearly a century.

During the Crimean War, Prussia - crucially - remained neutral. It leaned heavily towards supporting Russia, in its fights against the Ottoman Empire, France, and Great Britain.

Under Bismarck - Russo-German relations reached their absolute peak, and it was only the removal of Bismarck which ruined relations between the countries. Bismarck helped engineer the Three Emperor's League, and was the architect of the Reinsurance Treaty - a secret agreement to keep Germany and Russia friendly.

In WW1 we fought - but because of the tragic incompetence of the Austrians, and not because either of us really wanted to fight the other.

Prior to their invasion of the USSR, we also worked closely with Germany during the opening stages of WW2.

In brief - Germany and Russia nearly always work together, and those instances where they fight are unusual and rare.

Remember the mongols set russia back by about 300 years (in terms of socio-political development) and in the intervening centuries they've only caught up about halfway so far.
current russian political rhetoric is still 19th century great powers and empire nonsense....

Curious.

How does one explain then Trump's rhetoric, which seems to come from the Age of Mercantilism - before Adam Smith had penned the Wealth of Nations?

If Russians are living in the "High Imperial" period, because of the retardation imposed by the Mongols... what accounts for America living in an age which it actually never had the chance to even witness?

He wants to turn back the clock and so he's reaching for something convenient. It's clear that outsourcing production to the extent it was outsourced was a mistake (why put an enemy in charge of making medicines for you?). There's no much language for undoing some degree of globalization (well there is, but Trump is not intellectually curious enough to find it or let other people tell him about it). Trump has a fragile ego and hates being contradicted so he surrounds himself with non-entities and boot-lickers and the results are.... about what you'd expect.

I agree with the goal of reshoring a lot of production but his methods smell of hubris and disorganization... I think the fallback is just to wreck global supply chains so that they can't be easily rebuilt and to force production back....

America has a history of high tariffs on imports from Europe throughout the 19th century - it first was meant as a way to build-up its own industrial base

How does one explain Trumps rhetoric ?

Simple - he is an idiot who doesn't understand tariffs or trade or negotiation, he appointed idiots who also don't understand and he was voted in by simpletons and saps who are upset about minorities.

Golden Cow is a gift to North Nigeria and to China - he has already fatally weakened soft power and economic power is shrinking by the day

Talking about abominations. There is one thing more abominable than a puny, tiny nation-state. This thing is a corrupt, rotten-to-the-core, empire which continues its existence and is not allowed to fall despite its weakness.

It's like a purulent, suppurative near-corpse connected to life support and not allowed to pass away naturally to make way for something better.

This life support for suppurative, rotten empires is nuclear weapons--the most tragic invention in the whole history of humanity. Not because of its destructive power but because it keeps rotten corpses alive, obstructing natural selection.

" There's no much language for undoing some degree of globalization."

what does this mean I thought you were a linguist? no much languge?

I meant 'not much language'.... There's no ready made discourse for de-globalization that Trump has access to. Yarvin has some but.... not entirely useful.

I am not sure I agree that Russians are backward or primitive people. Their government may be restritive and tyrannical or authorative but I find polish people very bakwards and primitive especially sexually mnyself. I mean they are so against sex work in the modenr metoo and its our body our wants age its laughable.

Well you are right that they are certainly world leaders in amateur ****

I don't think anyone considers the North Nigerians to be primitive - but they are probably the worst governed country on the planet

but then again look how big of a country they have to govern with so many breakway republics like Chechnya.

But you are a genius who understands the intricate workings of the tariffs? In reality, low IQ, crass idiot.Frcken sparrow trying to attack the eagle.

You dont need to be a genius in order to realize that what Trump is claiming about tariffs is nonsense.

have you heard of on-shoring - I guess on-shoring is Trumps envisioned goal

Of course - and it might happen in some high margin industry like pharma or chip making.

In other industries making more basic but essential stuff it will never happen

Anyway - there are plenty of other threads discussing that. This thread is for the illegal invasion of peaceful Ukraine by its aggressive neighbor North Nigeria

So why would you be a russian, when you can be european instead? A larger, richer materially and spiritually, more honorable and more secure identity. The problems both share, are worse among russians. And many problems aren't shared between the two, and are unique to russians.
"Russian" is a sinking ship. If anything, the New Soviet Man was a nicer vehicle, though since that war was lost, it was correctly abandoned by most. Russia's invasion and butchery of Ukraine was the looting of that long dead corpse.

Russia is Europe part of it otherwise they'd be waging war sin Asia instead and they don't or care about it plus Moscow comes from Kiev an rus and Caucasus where all Slavs come from or Europe geographically.