Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 21

How many people died because Western democracies decided that they were not "free and democratic" enough?

Let's see...Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan,...

@Novichok

There is no `Western democracies`. It was a world of matrix created by western Europe and `deep USA state`, a false world, theater that existed to cover dirty exploitation of the rest of the world.

Now that is over. No more stealing and looting the world. They will live from their own resources and work.

Does he know russian? I don't trust non-insider sources....


Here's one account (it's not the US's fault that russians chose to steal almost all of it... blame your countrymen for failing to be able to cope with freedom and opportunity).

fpif.org/aid_to_russia/

I like to imagine that they would conduct themselves up to the standards of the Ukrainian army.

Do you understand that Russia is not the Seychelles? What are these homeopathic numbers? I think Poland must have received 20X more than that. The help was such - that we defaulted anyway, and had one of the world's greatest economic collapses in 1998.

Thanks so much boss! Really saved us there.

The numbers cited are a joke for a country the size of Russia. It was a spit in the face, compared to the help you offered our former satellites. The message was deeply internalized. The Cold War certainly had a winner, despite all the assurances that "no one won".


I like to imagine that Santa Claus brings children gifts every year, whether they've been naughty or nice - because he's kind that way.

Trump to let Putin keep land seized from Ukraine

Russia already has it because the residents there, through peaceful and democratic process, decided to join Russia.

The US bought Alaska from Russia without asking the locals.

But that doesn't make it any less odd, Maf. You're saying that they gave up a large chunk of their territory without fighting for it (even symbolically, to show that it was important to them) because a president of a foreign country told them not to. Unthinkable.

They gave up their nukes only for the hope of peace....not so much unthinkable als unbelievable naive! And they believed in the promise of the West to be their guarantee, if all fails.

Maybe another, older country with lotsa more foreign-policy-experience wouldn't had done all that...wouldn't had believed so easily!

Don't be a fool. They gave up their nukes for money.

The United States said it would vote against aid to Ukraine in the IMF and World Bank, and in general would be very displeased if Ukraine did not play along. No one wanted a nuclear Ukraine. Ukrainian leaders themselves had no idea what to do with these nukes, but they had millions of pensioners going hungry, and factories about to go bankrupt.

The giving up of nukes not only unlocked aid, but also rid Ukraine of a huge expense.

Leaving aside all the arguments about how Ukraine would never be able to maintain them, operate them, or prepare specialists for various crucial production aspects.

Ukraine gave them up because it had no other choice, and because it had no need for them. Even now - if they had them - and they used them... they would lose the entire world's support, and Russia would obliterate their country. By keeping it conventional, they are now about to do a deal where they keep a completely radiation free 80%.

Don't become a believer in the myth of the Ukrainian atom bomb.

Yes. russia should have been forced to publicly admit they failed and apologize for every soviet atrocity and high ranking party members should have been removed from public life.

The thought was that if the west was nice to russia then russia would act like an adult and not a spoiled kid throwing tantrums... that was a mistake.

russia's problems in the 1990s were _entirely_ the fault of russians and the choices they made and there's no sign that russians can actually admit that.


Not just any country, the country that had promised to defend their territorial integrity.... they possibly thought that the US could/would use pressure to reverse the invasion.... and their army barely existed... and they quickly had their hands full with the russian invasion in Donbas.

No country (including Poland.... especially Poland) can afford to trust the US.

Well Maf - the majority of America's respected economists disagree with you.

No country had a decent transition from a centrally planned economy to a free market one. It was all gradations of destruction. Even in China - the supposed model for how to do it right. In Europe, you have the Czechs at one end of the spectrum, and Ukraine at the other. It actually did much worse at the 1990s than Russia - but because I am fair - I am willing to admit that this was because we had tons of oil and gas (though it was worthless at the time, $8 a barrel I think).

It was the only half way real "baseball bat" for defense they had, and they gave it up....for a, as we now know, totally faked signature on a useless piece of paper which was never meant to be complied. ("to be complied" is that real english grammar???)

It's hard not to feel for them....

Though unlike Santa Claus, there does exist evidence for the exemplary behaviour of the Ukrainian army.

You don't believe in the Weihnachtsmann???? o_o

Okay....I'm outta here....

And don't believe the myth that that's all they gave up... there are pictures of Obama in Donbas supervising the destruction of weapons so that when the russians invaded they were defenseless....


No country had an easy transition because the planned economy distorted things so terribly... but no country screwed up the vast opportunities it had as thoroughly as russia did.... no mafia wars in Poland (well there were but tiny and insignificant in the overall country).

Why didn't putin use the vast amounts of money russia was receiving to improve living standards and infrastructure? because no russian government has ever cared about anything except fleecing the citizenry and invading neighbors...

" no mafia wars in Poland (well there were but tiny and insignificant in the overall country)."

Are you sure about this?

onet.pl/kultura/wydawnictwo-literackie/przemoc-i-strach-polska-mafia-lat-90-wojciech-tochman/jhlmgef,30bc1058

kronikatygodnia.pl/artykul/46227,jak-w-latach-90-brutalne-wschodnie-gangi-wrocily-do-polski

silesion.pl/wracaja-lata-90-gangsterzy-ze-wschodu-przejmuja-teren-w-polsce/

I just dont understand why the lack of illegal **** production or ls models type of stuff in poland even at the time. I think they just werent smart enough to do it on a global scale or make websites globally and sell women or girls in human trafficking and focused on other crimes.

@WariatismCurse

This lunatic is STILL allowed to rant on PF.
Why?

Yet more evidence that Russia is losing this war.
Ru$$ian A$$likers beware.....

@Bobko
You can explain facts to fanatics, and they will never accept them. If a blackjack dealer has 21 and you have 20, you lose the hand. But if you are a leftist, you claim the deck was stacked against you, while not admitting it is your own fault for sitting down at the table to gamble. Somehow, the leftist would blame someone else for driving them to the casino while forgetting they called the Uber.

Meanwhile, in Ukraine, more men on both sides died for nothing yesterday. Zelensky claims that Crimea can never be seen as being under Russian control, even though he owned an apartment in Crimea until 2023 when Russia siezed it and auctioned it off. He must have not heard all the Russian language being spoken there when he visted and vacationed there before the war. But the Ukraine constitution wont allow Ukraine to recognize this fact, and the same constitution tries to force NATO membership on NATO members without them agreeing to it. Completely makes sense when using Ukraine logic.

Because Bobko facts are not facts.

People died in Ukraine yesterday because the North Nigerians fired missiles at them. Civilians including kids

What that has got to do with blackjack or leftists is a mystery

I

RT and russian shills have totally captured MAGA and they have to repeat russian talking points as if they were real.

Of course these are people who know nothing of russia (or they would run away screaming) but supporting russia is symbolic rejection of the liberal democractic order that brings things they don't like. Rather than do the long work through the system they want to burn it down and enjoy the protection of the giant daddy figure.

It is what it is.

I have been a conservative Christian all my life but those MAGA retards make me want to wear a rainbow-coloured t-shirt and identify as a lesbian eskimo. *rolls eyes*

I've asked a few times if anyone's life has gotten better because of the russian invasion but russia supporters don't understand such concepts...

Anyway, he's a woman sitting beside the body of her 85 year old mother who the russians killed last night... I've seen this several times, people whose family members have been killed by the russians wait next to the bodies, sometimes for a very long time.

x.com/nexta_tv/status/1915315831824605284

I had a invitation for a wedding in Moscow,I applied for visa and the bastards refused me visa today with no explanation and there goes my 185$ plus 38$ agency fee.
Hey ruski huji Bobko instead of donating to PF send me the money I paid to your country.

@mafketis
Just how many times before the war did you visit Russia? How many cities have you been to? Do you work or socialize with a lot of Russians that would give you real insight into how they think and act?

Myself? I have visited Russia four times. Three cities. I work a lot with Russians and Ukrainians. One of my long term employee's is a Ukrainian who is living in Russia with his Russian wife after going through a filtration camp when they were caught in Kherson.

Talking points. The social media talking points of the west largely ignore the facts on the ground. Like, Ukraine doesnt have enough men. Like when the US stopped sharing intelligence, the Ukraine forces in Russia were almost wiped out in days. Imagine the US pulling out now for good and what happens. Zelensky talks about the constitution but wont hold elections, outlawed a church and all other oposition parties, and has blamed everyone else for his failures on the field. All the while getting elected as the person who would make peace.

PolAmKrakow, I begin to understand Zelensky's position: Russia is on the verge of running out of money to fund the war - or maybe they have already run out of money: inflation in Russia is at 20 per cent at the moment: it may be a sign that they are printing empty rubles - Zelensky probably counts on the notion that Russian soldiers will mutiny or something - I don't understand Putin's position in this situation, actually: instead of trying to accept Trump's intermediation (which is very favourable to Russia right now) he chooses to wage the war

He should be charged with meddling elections while being president of a nation, when he went to campaign for Harris in Pennsylvania
at the ammo factory.
I think they will when the war stops and he is out of power.

This is how much russians want peace....

x.com/HromadskeUA/status/1915317285667168487

as far as I know the only help Poland received from the West before joining the EU, was the partial foreign debt write-off - if you have other examples, I'm ready to hear them