Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 4

1. General awesomeness.
2. Moral superiority.
3. Soon to be the strongest land army in Europe. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha! (sinister laugh from horrors)

I would like to add "4. The power of our football team", but let's leave it at that for the time being.

@Bratwurst Boy
The war presents opportunity. Not all of them are obvious. JK is no dummy when it comes to taking advantage of a political situation. Poland and the number of Ukraine people taken in to Poland will be remembered. If Poland sends Leopards without German permission, it will be remembered. 15 countries have Leopards, roughly 2000 of them, and if Poland gets others on board to defy Germany, then Germany has a real political problem moving forward.

Hmm....he does so for decades now, especially against Germany....do you think he made Poland more powerful/influential during these years?

And frankly, one could misunderstand your post as if he is glad about this war, seeing it a great opportunity....understandable from a pure political viewpoint but hardly in tune with all the human/moral superiority blah, isn't it...

@Bratwurst Boy
When it comes to Germany, it's main driving force and prowess is it's methodical projects so industry/workforce plans are it's strength.

It used to also encompass it's military, but due to Germany's goals and aims being redirected by means of economy and diplomacy (which has been U.K's main specialty on the European continent) and experiences from WW2.

Poland's prowess on the other hand not only for the Catholic Church but, also for Germany and now EU as a whole has been Poland's focus on military might which has not been used actively or aggressively towards Europe/Germany/Catholic Church.

Poland's role as a European vanguard towards the hordes of the east while at the same time being a stalwart defender of Slavs in General vs Germanic/Latin influences has provided Poland which a footin, influence and power among western countries with regard to mongols/Russsians/communists etc which in modern times has been ignored or simply exploited in an ungrateful manner.

(Which is also why Poles and Americans can find common ground in recent years more and more)

Poland has a hard time competing with Germany in many fields (mainly due to economical differences), but one thing Poland is able to offer whole of EU, but also Germany is military might towards external threats. So a crisis near Poland's borders highlights this service and need to the EU, due to EU's pacifist approach towards Russia.

While many countries (including Germany) feared a militaristic Poland, that could threaten the EU or start converting rest of EU with militaristic/nationalistic approach to politics.

Poland has no need to expand militaristically westward on her own initiative, it's more likely to happen as part of a broader war which forced Poland and Germany to be on opposite sides of the fence.

By both Germany and Poland being in NATO, not only can Germany focus on her civilian sector, but also has no need to fear Polish expansion in to Germany except by Polish civilians settling within Germany which so far over the past centuries has contributed positively instead of negatively.

Russia as a threat to Germany was only highlighted for Germans themselves as a population during WW1, and WW2.

With Poland being in the way for Russian Imperialism, Germany can safely focus on foreign affairs towards, Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, France, U.K, Sweden, Austria, Luxembourg, Czech Rep, Hungary, Italy etc.

It's a Win-Win situation, and powers in Berlin for sure appreciate it, especially those power holders who experienced the guarantee of not getting attacked from the east in 1945-1990.

It's not without reason that the German elites are so focused on having good and friendly relations with Warsaw despite opposite interests at many times.

Question is if Scholz realises that or not

Hmmm... looks like Poland gave Ukraine more than it was officially admitted. Apparently "Żądło" (Sting) modernised Osa rocket systems were passed to Ukrainians as well...

geekweek.interia.pl/militaria/news-osa-p-niszczy-rosyjskiego-drona-pokazali-polska-bron-w-akcji,nId,6546463

... and there's a video of one of them destroying a Russian drone recently. The list of Polish military help is quite impressive but apparently incomplete. Maybe they don't say everything so that people aren't worried about our army being too weakened? I hope Koreans and Americans will speed up their deliveries. I'd be much calmer if we had all the stuff we bought already in Poland...

....interesting idea....Poland becoming the military arm of the EU?

Hmm....I doubt Scholz realises that...or anybody else for that matter....I googled the actual rankings of european militaries:

statista.com/statistics/1293634/most-powerful-militaries-europe/

Even Germany's army is still ranking higher than the polish army....that would have to change first to drive this possibility home, I think!

Who knows....Germany could supply the polish forces with military tech...

Nope. Here's the latest Global Firepower Ranking...

globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php

... Poland 20th, Germany 25th.

The ranking, however, doesn't take into account either the tons of stuff that we already ordered or the brand new Division that is currently being formed, so we are only moving on up in future rankings.

'Cause I'm movin' on up, you're movin' on out
Movin' on up, nothin' can stop me
Movin' on up, you're movin' on out
Time to break free, nothin' can stop me, yeah

*dances with joy*


Brilliant. Together we are unbeatable, and after the war we can use Ukrainian know-how to build our own nuclear forces. :)

...sounds more like it, heh:) But seriously both are not great places....even France and the Brits are better....

But imagine that.....we have the money and the tech....and you have the people and even more important, the will!

Together we could make some damn fine army, heh:)

And Ukrainians know how to build nukes!


Exactly! :)

@Bratwurst Boy
I am no fan of JK's positions or maneuvering in most cases. I am not saying he is happy about the war. I am saying, like all politicians he is an opportunist. And this opportunity for Poland to take a leadership position, coupled with pushing Germany aside, falls completely in line with his modus operandi. Lets not forget he just asked for war reparations from Germany in a time of war.

It is no different than the US planning to take advantage of things after the war, but the US is leading everyone so who is to rival them? Poland can for the first time theoretically lead Europe in a rime of war, when Germany refuses to. This is something that JK will recognize, probably has recognized and will definitely use to Poland's advantage. Imagine his legacy if he is the one that gets a coalition together to defy Germany and send Leopards.

I think Kashub has some interesting thoughts as well. Internally through NATO and the EU, I think we need to look at the politics that are taking shape through this. Not everything is as above board as we would think, and ulterior motives abound.

@PolAmKrakow


Do you know why all those logistical arguments do not sound very plausible in my ears? The USA has exported the Abrams to countries like Iraq, Marocco, Egypt and Saudi-Arabia. None of which are known to have well-run militaries and have terrain that makes maintenance likely more of a challenge. Yet supposedly it is impossible to do so with Ukraine, who by now have probably some of the most experienced logistics crew in the world.

Even if Leos end up being delivered first, I fully expect Abrams to follow them eventually. Because if the war ends up dragging on for years as many fear, then Ukraine will need more tanks than just the Leos that can be suppied to them. At which point the logistical issues will suddenly appear as much less of a problem than initially proposed.

I could be sold on this as well....but the main change has to be made in the leadership of Poland and Germany first....JK is not interested in working WITH Germany in the slightest and Scholz, I fear, has Poland not on his radar at all (besides as being a generally rude, noisy annoyance).

But with two leaders who will see eye to eye and looking for a true new fresh start and real cooperation....who knows what could be possible!

@Bratwurst Boy
My thoughts about it are a bit inspired by how Portugal and Spain divided it's influences and expansion between each other outside the Iberian Peninsula. It created a safe "home base" to be able to focus on external matters instead of each other.

I think it's possible to do the same between Poland and Germany as well with enough political will, Germany having more to say on the EU, while Poland things regarding eastern Europe and security

youtu.be/xE8TcBjhgk4

2+3=5...million Ukrainians in Poland today, more on the way and, no, they are never going to leave as there is nothing to go back to.

"...that will destroy Polish national identity..."
"...Poland is Western stooge..."
"...Poles never had a chance to agree..."
"...Polish government is hiding..."

"Democracy" at work...

You vexatious antipodean!


Where are they hidiing? It's been months since there were lines at reception centers.... presence in public transport and stores is back to 2019 levels.... so, you've fallen for russian lies..... again!

Are they paying you to post this cr@p and embarrass yourself when your lies get caught out?

Poland doesn't crave power.

Though it is likely to come out of the war with much more. Poland is one of the countries that has stepped up to the mark most.

Certain countries are showing true leadership. Certain others are not.


And is increasing it where it matters. The Eurasia that emerges from this war will not be the Eurasia that went into it. Cosy trading relationships and continued petrochemicals supply from r*SSia is off the table dirt decades to come.


Poland should simply send them. Others will follow.

Brilliant.

I know many Ukrainian immigrants personally and I'm proud to call some of them my friends. They are honest and hard-working people who are close to us linguistically and culturally and who assimilate amazingly fast. No to mention that they seem to be linguistic geniuses - most of those among my acquaintances who came here in February/March last year, with the first wave, speak almost perfect Polish. I can only say that I hope they will stay here forever. Especially that with Polish negative population growth rate, millions of mostly young people (white, Slavic and Christian) added to our population is a treasure.


What?

Poland has been a multinational country for the larger part of our history - we had Lithuanians, Germans, Tatars, Jews, Ukrainians, Belarussians plus immigrants from Italy, Scotland and the Netherlands - to name just the main groups. Do you know that the name "Kazanowski", for example, is polonised version of Casanova, all the places called Szkoty (or Nowe Szkoty, Stare Szkoty etc.) are remainders of old Scottish settlements? Not to mention countless of our Germans who were more patriotic than many Poles themselves (admiral Unrug, general Rómmel, gen. Anders, Traugutt, Lelewel, Kolberg, Linde etc. etc.) They were all a part of Great Rzeczpospolita - that is our identity, Novi, not the monolingual, mononational monstrosity that Stalin has turned us into.

So, when I see former Rzeczpospolita nation members coming to settle in Poland, my heart rejoices. :)

....and totally accidentally....not wanted or steered that way at all, right? Jon, you are contradicting yourself in nearly every post now! ;)


German heritage? Coool....

You guys should really go easier on our BB, and Scholz himself. The Leopard 2 MBTs likely won't change anything on the battlefield, and probably the Germans understand this.

The respected American military analyst specializing on Russia, Michael Kofman, has called the entire discussion around Leopards and Abrams "talismanic". That is, it's much more important whether or not the tanks will be given, than how effective they will actually be.

There's a few reasons for this, but here are the primary two:

1) The tanks are being provided in very small numbers, which simply won't make a difference regardless of what kind of a wunderwaffen it is.

2) The recent conflict in Syria has shown that Leopard 2s explode like an overheated can of tuna, just like the T-72 does. A bunch of sandal-wearing Kurds and Assadists torched dozens of Turkish Leopards, leaving Erdogan with a bloody nose. I'm sure Russian troops equipped with 2nd and 3rd generation ATGMs will have an even easier time than the Kurds did.

Bottom line: Scholz may understand this won't change a thing, but instead will almost certainly remove the date of a future peace settlement further into the future.

Regarding the Abrams... I think the Americans are telling the truth when they say it's a useless piece of sh!t, that is unsuited for action in the fields of Europe. Also, the Americans don't want to shut down the chance of more exports to dummies like Poland, if it suddenly emerges that the tank is useless gas guzzling behomoth. For those of us with some memory, we can remember how dozens of Abrams were left smoking on the sides of roads after ISIS' successful dash to Mosul.

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Yip. German roots on both sides; his mother's maiden name was Tauchert. They were also all Lutherans and all staunch Polish patriots (he had three brothers who were professional soldiers in Polish Army). Good old Europe, eh? :)

Nothing is indestructible.

Just a nice pic of an Abrams in Mosul:

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Major wars change everything.


Including the Kremlin.

Even the russian embassy in Sweden realizes that inferior russia has no territorial claim to any part of the noble nation of Ukraine.

twitter.com/ZMiST_Ua/status/1615597353968222208/photo/1

baby steps! russians don't learn very fast but this is progress!

The difference is that Syrians and Afghans are quite good soldiers - what are the chances of some drunk kid from the kolkhoz having both the equipement and the knowledge to destroy a modern tank ?

I see Russia is claiming to have launched another offensive today - should be good for a laugh and Saturday night is a weird time as they will all be ripped off their tits after a long day drinking paint stripper and whatever else they could steal from Ukrainian hardware stores

Hmm. So the indomitable Ukrainian heroes that are sacrificing their lives on the altar of Western democracy are being killed by "drunk kolkhoz" boys? It's not good to have a poor appreciation of the enemy. Germans can tell you some things about this.

for the independence and freedom of their country. Like Poland in 1939-45. That is why Poles fully support Ukraine coz our own history comes to mind when we observe the events.


No, that was a public supply, we mentioned it a few weeks ago.

Excellent! The more, the merrier!!!

Thank you, sir, for your warm words. You are a good man. I always knew it.


Exactly!

fvkc around and find out, as they say....

russian propagandist (Yelsukova) visits Soledar to prove that russians have absolutely captured it completely and her knee becomes a sniper's target

twitter.com/Rinegati/status/1616798800366174209

no sympathy for any russian who goes to Ukraine willingly to hurt Ukrainians...

@Tacitus
Abrams runs on jet fuel. All those other areas have a ready supply of it and infrastructure to move it. Ukraine does not have that infrastructure or access. If you have been to Ukraine by plane, you would notice right away landing in Kiev or Liviv that there were even a shortage of jet fuel tankers at the airports. This has neve been a country deep in aviation or aviation fuels.

No tank is indestructible. Remind me again how many Russian tanks ended up being Russian crematories in Ukraine during this invasion? Abrams and Leopard far exceed any Russian tin can.

You know what is Russian and works exactly as described? Their women exported as strippers and prostitutes to Poland and Syria. They love the west, in a literal way. Happy gulag biatches!

Nope and who is going to maintain them with what parts ?
An Abram is a very high maintenance tank.