Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 7

Can you imagine eating tacos with chopsticks and simultaneously drinking vodka?

your own government is the biggest existential threat to russia at present.... but being russian there's nothing russian citizens can do about that. All they can do is cower in the dust and hope the new Tsar is merciful... horrible, inhuman way to live but it seems to be what you like.

Thee still chances that poles will be used as a cannon fodder after draftable ukrainians come to an end. But middle east conflict may became a very powerful distracting factor, and if question will be about choosing between ukraine and israel without chances to support both, possible answer is pretty clear.

This is complete bullshit. The canadian ukrainian nationalists that came back in 2014, (OUN-B war refugees) and introduced some minor laws regarding restricting russian in legal texts and government paperwork, does not constitute 'ethnic cleansing' in any shape or form.

russians are drama queens with a paranoid victim complex.... no country with a real russian minority is happy about it. Latvia just expelled a few thousand that refused to learn basic Latvian (for over 30 years....)

it is what it is...

Exactly maf, what's the propaganda ie velund saying ? If there is no russia in the world, what's the point of the world? ie inferiority complex launch our nuclear missiles half of them are faulty already, plutononium sold a long time ago and they;ll just not work, or if not nuclear blow up above the launch site.

OSINT accounts have counted and it's now certain that around 20 Russian military helicopters were destroyed or damaged in the first Ukrainian ATACMS strike ever. (KA-52's & MI-9's)

2 Russian airfields in Berdyansk and Luhansk were targeted in a surprise attack the Russians didn't see coming.

Ukrainian lawyer and blogger Tatyana Montyan published an interesting post in her channel.... I take my time to translate it.

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Schröder's revelations: Ukraine's missed opportunities

Former German Chancellor Gerhard #Schröder told Berliner Zeitung about the Ukrainian-Russian negotiations in Istanbul in the spring of 2022, in which, according to him, he took part. He was invited to the role of negotiator by the Ukrainian side, deciding that he could effectively translate Ukrainian proposals to Putin. Schröder told what peace terms the Russian side had offered. And these conditions were more than mild.

First of all, Donbass was supposed to be fully returned under Kiev's control, albeit on the terms of autonomy "similar to South Tyrol" - a territory in the north of Italy, populated predominantly by German-speaking people. This autonomy, it must be said, is quite broad, but it has not damaged the territorial integrity of Italy in any way over the past half-century.

Secondly, Ukraine was supposed to refuse to join NATO in return for, quote, "security guarantees, including ones from the UN Security Council and Germany".

Third, Russia demanded a solution to the language issue, and in an interesting formulation: "The Ukrainian parliament has abolished bilingualism. This must be changed," Schröder said. Apparently, it was not even about granting Russian the status of the second state language, but only about returning to the norms of the language law adopted under Yanukovych.

The status of Crimea was also discussed, but in this part of his interview, Schröder was the least specific, saying that "Crimea is a part of Russia's history" and that the fate of the region was supposed to be decided "in the process of further negotiations". Let me remind you that Lukashenko earlier said that Moscow was even ready to agree to the recognition of Crimea as Ukrainian, provided that it was given to Russia on a long-term lease. The Kremlin, however, denied Lukashenko's words, but somehow ambiguously.

If Schröder's words are to be believed, by accepting Russia's proposals, Ukraine could have ended the war a year and a half ago with a complete victory - in the sense that its situation after the war would have been at least no worse than before the outbreak of hostilities. NATO? Ukraine wasn't taken there anyway, and so far they won't take it either. Russian language? Well, the Kivalov-Kolesnichenko law is a mere formality, which does not oblige anyone to anything, so the demands for its return are purely "for the sake of a tick", they say, "we have protected the rights of Russian-speaking people". It is not clear about Crimea, but Ukraine did not control it before the war and does not control it now. And one would have to have an extremely developed imagination to believe that it will control it in the near future, based on the results of the counteroffensive. Therefore, a Hong Kong-type long-term lease could actually be the biggest victory possible in this matter. Donbass? Even in the worst case scenario for Ukraine - status quo for the moment before the war starts, and in the best case - a real chance to hoist the Ukrainian flag over the "Donbass-area".

It is also quite clear what the rejection of these agreements has cost Ukraine in Hamburg terms: minus significant parts of the Kherson and Zaporizhzhya regions and huge damage to industry and infrastructure. Donbass and Tavria have been officially accepted as part of Russia, and now their return is becoming a very ephemeral matter. Significant losses on the front and in the rear, and most importantly - even more significant demographic losses in the form of refugees who left the country during this time, and those who, after a year and a half, have already managed to put down roots in a new place and will never return.

In general, no matter how you spin it and no matter how you reason, the signing of these agreements in the version in which they are presented by Schröder was maximally favorable for Ukraine, but the refusal to sign them was not. And the corresponding decision was made not taking into account the interests of Ukraine and its people, but was oriented to the interests of completely different forces.

But now, after Schröder's revelations, it is finally clear why the citizens of Ukraine were not notified about all these conditions. And they will not. Because otherwise it will become absolutely obvious on whose hands the blood and thousands of lives of both Ukrainians and Russians are.

===

I would add from myself that Lukashenko mentioned something that can be understood that withdrawal of Russian troops from Kiev was one of the pre-requisites of this agreement. But Boris Johnson came urgently and a staged event was organized in Bucha so that the MSM could raise not even a wave but a whole tsunami and declare any agreement that would nullify the planned MIC profits impossible.

Now it should be clear why any dealings with Ukraine and its handlers are now possible only on the rules of "all money up front". And, more likely, agreements simply can no longer be made.

Velund, please forgive me for offering a Cliff Notes version of what you posted. These idiots will most likely not read anything even this short.

First, Donbas to be under Kiev's control.

Secondly, Ukraine not to join NATO - with security guarantees from the UN.

Third, allowing the Russian language as the second language.

Fourth, Crimea - open to negotiations.

A-holes said no even to this and now half a million men are dead.

I found the real article and about two thirds of the things Montyan claims aren't in it.... and even his claims about American intervention are speculation....

For some reason the forum won't let me post the original......but it's not hard to find with the search (Suchen) function

berliner-zeitung.de

The curious can read for themselves (or use google translate)

I found the real article and about two thirds of the things Montyan claims aren't in it.... and even his claims about American intervention are speculation....

For some reason the forum won't let me post the original......but it's not hard to find with the search (Suchen) function

berliner-zeitung.de

The curious can read for themselves (or use google translate)

mods please delete previous comment (guest for some reason my computer signed me out).

Article in Stern about the same interview.... Is there full unediited video version? We have German speakers here... ;)

stern.de/politik/deutschland/altkanzler--schroeder--ukrainer-durften-keinen-frieden-vereinbaren-33933934.html

Schröder: Ukrainians were not allowed to reconcile peace
21.10.2023, 21:53

Shortly after the Russian attack on Ukraine, Gerhard Schröder tried to act as a mediator without coordination with the federal government. In retrospect, he expresses a brilliant supuma.

The old chancellor and friend of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Gerhard Schröder, has suggested that the US had prevented a quick peace agreement shortly after the start of the Russian war of aggression on Ukraine. During negotiations in Istanbul in March 2022, the Ukrainians had not agreed on peace, "because they were not allowed to do so," said the Social Democrat of the "Berliner Zeitung".

"They had to ask the Americans about everything they elated only." What he based on concrete terms remained open. The 79-year-old is under criticism because, despite the war in Ukraine, he is committed to friendship with Putin.

After the beginning of the war in February last year, representatives of Russia and Ukraine met several times for negotiations, including in Turkey. According to Russian figures, there was also an agreement, which, however, was not implemented. Moscow accused Kiev of failing its agreements to end the conflict at the behest of Washington. Ukraine justified the cancellation of the negotiations, among other things, with the disclosure of the war crimes in Butsha. Hundreds of civilians were found in the village near Kiev. The Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky had then banned further negotiations with Russia by decree. In recent days, Putin stressed that there could only be new negotiations if the ban was lifted.

Schröder travelled to Moscow in March 2022

In March 2022, Schröder had travelled to Moscow without coordination with the Federal Government in March 2022 to talk to Putin. According to the report of the New York Times at the time, he was received in the Kremlin like a head of state or government.

The "Berliner Zeitung" said Schröder himself received a request from Ukraine to mediate between the country and Russia in 2022. "The question was whether I could convey a message to Putin. There would also be someone who would have a very close relationship with the Ukrainian president himself. That was Rustem Umjerov, today's Minister of Defence of Ukraine," said Schröder. He had two talks with Umjerov, then a four-eye conversation with Putin and then Putin's envoy, Schröder said. At the talks on 7 and 13 October In March 2022, butsha was not yet known.

Umjerov had shown willingness to make concessions in the negotiations, for example, that Ukraine does not want NATO membership. "He also said that Ukraine wants to reintroduce Russian in Donbas. But in the end nothing happened. My impression: nothing could happen, because everything else was decided in Washington." He also said, "The Americans believe you can keep the Russians small."

Schröder has always criticised the Russian war of aggression, but has sought to maintain relations with Russia and repeatedly spoke of the Kremlin's willingness to negotiate. Such positionings and his Russian connections brought him a lot of criticism. After the Russian invasion, the SPD's party leadership has repeatedly clearly distanced itself from Schröder and declared it isolated in the party. However, a party exclusion proceeding brought into motion by 17 party structures failed.

....I think the word here is "suggested"!

I read the original article till "...Vermutung geäußert"....that's all....nothing of real value....he is an old man who probably suggests and guesses things all day.

Everybody's turned on him... his own party's tried to kick him out and his russian friends stabbed him in the back... he's a lonely old extrovert and desperate for attention.

Schröder is an opposite Jimmy Cater. He had a good tenure as chancellor, but ruined his reputation afterwords.

In other news, for the idiots that think russia invaded because of NATO.... Erdogan has signed Sweden's accession protocol and sent it to parliament....

Only holdout left.... pro-russian Hungary....

NATO bigger than ever!

Vladimir Putin: US politicians began to talk about a nuclear war with Russia and China at the same time. If I were them, I wouldn't even think of a war against Russia and China, because that would sign their end. The US is bankrupt, that's why they want a war with us. Instead of producing goods, foods and everything, they feed on wars. Again I repeat that Russia has all the weapons of a great war, but I would never want to use them, I hope I won't be provoked. If the US thinks it's going to win a war against us, they are being blatantly lying. Believe me, you would never want a serious war with Russia and China, you can only lose from it . Instead of talking about world peace with all countries, you always talk about wars with them. I am not against the people of the United States, as Biden says, I am against their politicians. I do not want a war with the USA because there are many people in the USA who support Russia, as well as everywhere in the world without their politicians. I do not want a war with anyone, but if they attack us, we will defend ourselves with all our means Russia has.

Those who are anti-Russia and anti-Israel love sob stories and ignore one simple thing that is common to both cases. This is going to be profound so read slowly and try to understand every word. Here we go:

Neither Russia nor Israel can afford to lose. They both will prevail. From now on, it's only a matter of how many will die before it's obvious to the screaming idiots here and out there.

Was it simple enough? So, don't fvck with my brain about tanks, guns, "freedom and democracy", bravery, and other irrelevant sh*it.

There are probably very few of them. It seems to me that those who love russia do not love Israel and those who love Israel do not love russia.

That doesn't make my post above any less brilliant. This one is even better:

Russia and Israel will prevail.

Nobody doubts that this will happen.

The only one springing to mind here on PF is Pawian....he hates Russia and Israel....

Nazi Germany couldn't afford to lose...... look what happened....

Interestingly Ukrainian sympathies went immediately to Israel and russian sympathies (to the extent they're capable of that) went to Hamas....

So you're out of step.

What do the Palestinians have? They're totally unorganized apart from religious zealotry and hatred for Israelis.... they have nothing else.

Above all, they have perseverance.

Do they?

They are under the rulership of a terrorist organization, ruled from Teheran, and they are cheering for them....they could have had their own running country by now, supported with money and goods from the world like no other...

I dunno, "perseverance" has a rather positive signification...something strong and brave....

But stubbornly preferring to lie in the dirt to be trampled on, only waiting for Jews to be killed and Israel to stop existing, can hardly be called perseverance. Stupidity is alot more like it.....

They could but they can`t coz Israel occupies the West Bank. Isn`t it obvious, Nazi boy????

With posts like that you have made a complete mockery of yourself on this forum.Once a respected poster, you are now seen as the PF clown and virtue signaller.


True.Though "Israeli's" should read "Jews", people would be surprised to learn that Israel is only about 73% Jewish,5.5% other and 21% Arabic.


But not Gaza.... Hamas occupies that.....


How can you possibly accuse BB of being a Nazi, especially when you know how particularly insulting that is for Germans and yet virtue signal your support for Hamas, which I would describe as a Nazi terror group.