Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 7

Up to Poland. They want to develop industrially/c commercially and actually own production facilities at home and abroad rather than have them owned by or be a market for others and Poland has both an entrepreneurial spirit as well as technical ability.


Sometimes, you have to do what's right morally rather than what the bean counters say.

Anyway, you didn't explain why you omit posters' name from their quotes.

@jon357


Nothing wrong with that. I just wonder if focusing on other areas would not have been smarter and more lucrative.


I write from my mobil phone and the names are not added to my quotes.


Why is it inherently moral to spend on defence spending, if the military ends up not being used? And is it really more moral to spend money on weapons that end up not being used, than say on poor children and their families. Most of the money spent on the military is not going to end up on Ukraine, since only a small part is used for equipment. Most of it - in any military - goes into pensions, salaries and the bureaucracy.

Money for deterrence should be spent according to the size of the threat. And the size of the Russian threat has been diminished since February 2022, that much is clear.

Like being a low value supplier to Germany's manufacturing chain? Yeah nah pass.


This is the same mentality that crippled german military spending since the fall of the USSR and look what happened. You are underestimating how quickly Russia can rearm and strengthen after the war. Especially with China's help.

There are plenty of high-quality industries with lots of future demand which Europe would greatly benefit from. Like semi conductors. If you are willing to build up an industry almost from scratch, there are a lot of promising options.

For Polish or Polish-owned industries, the key issue is whether or not Poland benefits from that economic activity as owners rather than clients or employees.


I'd guess they're looking at that too, however we're very much at a time of technical flux and as far as industry in Europe is concerned, it's sort of make or break right now. Your country and my country of origin are mature economies and major industrial producers. Poland less so. Plus of course most key industries in Germany and the U.K. are owned domestically. Poland is a little far from that at the moment.


Jobs and of course a deterrent. Plus of course the lucrative nature of arms exports and the concomitant development of peacetime technology and science that comes from funding arms research. Rolls Royce and BAe(the iteration of RR that still belongs to the U.K.) are the world's leading industrial powers for certain key technologies and those peacetime applications came via defence R&D. A big earner and provides thousands of jobs.

Poland is uniquely vulnerable due to centuries of other countries treating them as a back yard, most chillingly now seen in political rhetoric coming out of r*SSia.

After the war is over too, the reconstruction in Ukraine will be huge and Polish owned (and U.K./US) companies best placed to get the lead contracts for this.

That is a good point. PiS going overboard.


Not if we can't develop freely but under German supervsion. German piority it is to keep up their wealfare state working with their ageing population.

I agree that Russia is not a threat for you but an opportunity.

Maybe for Poland it is less of a military threat that PiS is making it out but political and economical demination could be even worse.

Not, being able to develop fully can lead to a serious decline and keep Poland forever as a subsidiary of German economy.

Last but not least - We as in Poland are a key counrty in this part of the world and NATO eastern border. That should be taken into consideration as well in making assements. After all you are safe hidding behing our back.

Quoting:

Foreign mercenaries reveal shocking casualty rates in Ukraine - media
In some units, more than eight out of ten men have been wounded or killed, ABC News has reported

Some Ukrainian units have suffered casualty rates of 85% during their ongoing counteroffensive against Russian forces, Western mercenaries told ABC News on Thursday. The report aligns with casualty figures released by Russia, which claims that its forces have destroyed 43,000 Ukrainian troops in two months.

I told you to stay home, get a six-pack, and wait for pizza...but you wouldn't listen...My sincere condolences...
And that Z-P is still 0. Damn...

you are making a lot o good point here jon. I have really underestimated you as a marxist with your progressive nonsense, but here you got it right. I'm impressed.

Explain this, please. For example, when banderites trying to perform ethnic cleanising of historically Russian regions, should decent people protect their own citizens and its close relatives with a neighbour passports, or just sit and allow to make something similar to Volyn massacre?

All three of them.


All crises are to an extent opportunities however with the current r*SSian war, there are some European countries who feel entitled to do well out of it while seeing Poland as a client state rather than an emerging major power.


More an Owenite, a Chartist or a Co-operative, and one who is saddened by people getting all worked up by people who wear different clothes, have different colour faces or who marry people of the same gender while not realising they're being conned into getting worked up by this by people who are getting more money from their labour than they earn in wages from it. Some people are very easily played and we see it here.

That depends, Velund...

Violence by Russia is never justified. Never! Even if the enemy threatens Russia's very existence.

All violence by the West is justified. Especially if they say "it's for freedom and democracy". Then everything - napalm on little girls and millions of dead civilians - is OK.

Did you finally get it?

@jon357


Imagine if China ends up invading Taiwan in a few years, thus cutting off the main suppliers for semi-conductors from Europe. Producing them would become as valuable as creating gold.


Let us hope that Ukraine wins. But yeah, that should serve as motivation for further help. An Ukrainian victory would not only greatly boost Europe's security but also its' security. At least the German companies seem to have realized this sooner than the government.

Are you quite sure? The recent Ukrainian political turn towards Germany might suggest that they have different plans as far as the post-war reconstruction is concerned.

Remember what happened in Iraq? We also had this pipe dream of earning a lot of money on the post-war reconstruction. Budimex (a company that built roads and highways in Iraq in 1980s) wanted to do business there again, as well as Stalexport, Bumar, Energobudowa or Łucznik, to name just a few. American companies took those contracts. All that we got was Bumar's $240 million worth of arms supply orders.

Something tells me it will be similar with Ukraine. Poland is very unlikely to even get back what we already pumped into Ukraine.

You can make your own.
Semiconductors are not mined or grown. They are FABRICATED by machines. You do have machines. don't you?

Interesting - it gives the total contribution of Poland at 4.3 billion euro. Polish government says 50 billion PLN (11.2 billion euro). Quite a difference!

Bribery.


British, American, Turkish (lots of those), Italian, Chinese, Emirati and various opaque contractors based in Monaco etc. I was there to see it all (working for first a Italian/U.K. company and then a Emirati one who had a contract from the Americans/Chinese. Poland didn't move fast enough or play dirty enough with the kickbacks. Hopefully Polish businesses won't make the same mistake again in Ukraine,

They will be flawlessly f*cked over once again. Mark my words and you can quote me on that.

Your reward will be the memory of quality time at the virtue-signaling party and millions of Ukrainians that didn't leave.
And officially bilingual Poland...schools, papers, TV channels...stuff like this...

Interesting queston - when Russian troops will advance to the West, will ukraine evacuate Bandera monuments to Poland? Or Canada will get it and erect in public places?

Daily reminder: Ukraine was not interested in joining NATO up until Russia invaded them and took Crimea.

When Ukraine advances on Moscow, will the r*SSians evacuate that dreadful waxy corpse Vladimir in the Kremlin and entomb him next to Lenin's grisly remains.

Daily reminder: Ukraine may change its mind. Russia wants to be sure it will not happen as it did in the past. Smart Russia.
Dumb Western useful idiots - aka "volunteers" - who died for a cause not their own.

WTF does it even mean?

You lied, as always...

Quote:

Ukraine's relationship with NATO began in 1992, when Ukraine joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council after independence. A few years later, in February 1994, Ukraine concluded a framework treaty with NATO under the Partnership for Peace initiative, which was followed in 2002 by the Individual Partnership Plan with NATO.

In 2005, after the Orange Revolution and the coming to power of President Viktor Yushchenko, cooperation with NATO acquired the format of "Accelerated Dialogue", which was intended to be the first step towards Ukraine's accession to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. In early 2008, the alliance received an appeal from Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko and Parliament Speaker Arseniy Yatsenyuk with a request to join Ukraine to the NATO Membership Action Plan, but at the NATO summit in Bucharest in April of the same year, the Ukrainian side was refused because of the position of Germany and France. At the same time, the heads of state and government of NATO member states stated in Bucharest that Georgia and Ukraine would become NATO members[1] when they meet the requirements for membership in the organization[2].

Belarus took part in the North Atlantic Cooperation Council, that's about it.

"Lie" is such a nasty word. Let's say Korvinus adapted a creative approach towards an abstract idea formerly known as truth.

Anyways, check this out...

nationalinterest.org/feature/vivek-ramaswamy-gets-ukraine-right-206690

... it was sent to me by an American friend. The idea that Ukraine is not a vital U.S. strategic interest, as well as the concept of new "Concert of Europe" and acknowledging Moscow's sphere of influence (without allowing further expansion) sound refreshingly different. What do you think?

Dear GK, can you please break the second-to-last long sentence into smaller and easy-to-understand pieces?


I am never surprised. They always lie and hope nobody will say boo.

One more time: That war started way before Feb 24, 2022.

Can't be arsed.

Just read the article, Novi, and see for yourself.

Great article.

Mike Pence is an as*hole.

Do you agree with my review?

Certainly not in our lifetime. :):):)