Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 7

Kania is a nationalist with victims of Volhynia massacre in his family and he has a tendency to shifting on all kinds of things from time to time. And PolAm is an American.

Of course, there is some shift in the Polish society, as it was expected, I think. And it's possible that this shift will continue to grow if such conflicts as with the grain import won't be resolved in a reasonable way.


Actually, he sounds like a RuSSian to me lol

Do you disagree? You really think triumphant Russia or triumphant Ukraine wouldn't be a source of problems for Poland?


Ekhm... nationalist? Moi? You've got to be kidding me. I get by in four foreign languages, have friends of various creeds and nationalities, my love for both Russia and Germany is well known in Gdańsk and beyond, my Czechophilia is simply legendary, and with Hungarians I can only say "Nem, nem soha!" and "igazsagot magyarorszagnak!" every 4th June or even 23rd March. That's the kind of horrible nationalist I am. :)

This I can believe as coming from an Ukrainian (one prejudiced towards Poles, but still):


I've often heard and read in interviews with Ukrainian refugees coming to Poland how surprised they were that Poles were helping them so much. I guess a lot of Ukrainians don't know and understand Poles that well, they don't know what makes us tick, similarly like RuSSians don't...

Our government keeps repeating that Ukraine is fighting also for our safety, so it may sound like Poland is acting out of "selfish" reasons. But in reality it's about much more than this, imho.


I can understand this sentiment. I just hope that majority of Ukrainians don't think this way... Ukrainians aren't "beggars" for us - they remind us of Poles fighting for our freedom. For me they are heroes. And we don't want to "lord over" them :(((

😢


Yes, in case of Ukrainian victory.

I think since the Ukris don' care, and they hammer us for daring to say no import their oligarchairc grain, that kania has a point.

@amiga500, he has a point about what?

That's my impression of you. A nationalist (a lighter version, but still) of the RuSSophilic type.

"Myśl Polska" is your "favourite periodical", for God's sake...

Anyway, my point was that you're not exactly representative of the majority of Poles in more than one way...

about ukranian diplomacy, zero sum turbo game also violence they play it like they in ukraine, unf they have germany on their side so we can expect a lot more of this, esp in the polish elections, zelensky and his mob want PO and germany to come ahead,, their way to a peace treaty and Ukri EU money, so expect a lot more ukranian-polish warfare.

I made a point about that too earlier in the thread, so I'm not sure what you're on about.
Besides, PiS' diplomacy isn't the most sophisticated either, to put it mildly ;/


We don't know if this has anything to do with that. Ukraine has been pretty "turbo" with Germany too earlier. I guess it's Poland's turn lol


I'm not sure why they'd want that... My impression is that PO is less hawkish than PiS.

And as for Germany - Germans have this soft spot for RuSSia, so I'm not sure why they'd want Germany to "come ahead" (whatever that means)

That's only because I know history, have a lot of human decency and sense of fairness in me, and I'm almost as pan-Slavic as Crow. If I were an ignorant in historical matters and had an ice block instead of a warm Slavic heart, then I'd probably read "Newsweek" or something. But - ask yourself this question - would I be the same Kania that everyone loves and adores in such case?




Yip. That's what I wrote in #2,257. Pretty obvious for anyone observant enough.

Yyy, wasn't the narrative 'how good PiS is in power because PO would do nothing to help?

No, you wouldn't be a nationalist then, but you are one, so just face it :)) As I wrote, you're not some hardcore nationalist, but people who aren't nationalists don't have "Myśl Polska" as their "favourite periodical".

From Wiki: "Myśl Polska" - "tygodnik społeczno-polityczny o orientacji narodowo-demokratycznej."
And what is Narodowa Demokracja?:

pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narodowa_Demokracja

"polski ruch polityczny o ideologii nacjonalistycznej"


Could you explain then why would Ukrainian government want PO and Germany to "come ahead"?


Exactly lol

PO would most likely have followed the German line (as they always do) and send 100 helmets and 45 first-aid kids in the initial phase of the war, allowing Russians if not flawless then at least decisive victory. If you think Tusk would stood up to Germany and reacted the way PiS did, you apparently haven't been following Polish politics too closely.

The reason PiS's attitude shifted is because Ukrainian foreign policies shifted - they re-oriented themselves fully into 100% pro-German option and, as Germany would like to install Tusk as their gauleiter here (which, again, might not necessarily be a bad thing), it provoked a predictable reaction from PiS. Oh, well...

*grabs popcorn*


Because it's their age-old tradition to be pro-German (SS-Galizien, Warsaw Uprising hand-in-hand-with-Germans quenching, anti-Polish ethnic cleansing etc). Besides, they are counting on German support in joining the EU, and they know that Berlin pulls most EU strings. Simple.

This is not a valid test.

I love Mexicans. In Mexico. I love Chinese. In China. I love them all in their own countries. I just don't want any of them here.

Am I a nationalist?

Only if we define a nationalist as a "generally harmless cuddly sweet puppy who values undeniable patriotism and historical wisdom of Roman Dmowski".


I don't like putting labels on people as some posters here do. Would you call yourself a nationalist?

Yep, the foreign policy experts , twitter.com/d_foubert/status/1704856348364812713

it started with zelensky and sholtz 6 months ago and him saying germany done the most for ukraine, those german invasion bandera ties go way back.

RuSSia's invasion of Ukraine is something unprecedented in Europe in our times, especially for Poland. So, I think that maybe PO wouldn't behave the way PiS did, but they wouldn't be as useless in the initial phase of the war as Germany was either.


I have an impression that your prejudices are speaking through you now...


It doesn't mean that Germany will pull those strings for Ukraine though... RuSSia has strings to pull in Germany too... I guess we'll see.

See that paulina? the ukraine type of diplomacy has set me off, and made me mad at ukraine. And i bet i'm not the only pole.

konfa votes going up by percentage ++ maybe that's the point.

Na ja.....that didn't help Ukraine much....

Even the SPIEGEL admits it now:


spiegel.de/panorama/angela-merkel-lettlands-ex-praesident-kritisiert-ex-kanzlerin-wegen-russland-politik-a-ac273300-f586-4648-85cb-4d3f6f65b18d

"Just don't annoy Putin"

Angela Merkel prevented Ukraine from joining the alliance at the NATO summit in Bucharest in 2008. Latvia's former president Valdis Zatlers was there at the time. He accuses the Germans of being excessively considerate. ....

If you so want Merkel-Germany is to blame for this Ukraine war....

You're a sociopath, but I guess you could be called a nationalist too lol


There you go.


See what?

that ure a puppet?

@amiga500, are you retarded or something? ;D What do you mean by "puppet"? lol


Not according to the latest poll:

rp.pl/wybory/art39136371-sondaz-pis-wygrywa-ale-to-opozycja-ma-powody-do-radosci

That's ancient history, BB.

As it is now, Ukraine is fully pro-German whilst PiS counted on them joining their Intermarium pipe dream after the war.

Besides, I can only imagine how Kaczynski and his court reacted to Zelensky calling them players in Putin's theatre (or something like that) ha ha

A lot of popcorn, that's what we need.

Nationalist (def.) - a person who strongly identifies with their own nation and vigorously supports its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

So the answer is Yes. I am a nationalist. per this definition...

...and so is everybody else - including you - but is not willing to admit it because it's not nice to be a nationalist. You know... NAZIs...Hitler...Auschwitz... they made the word radioactive or, in the US, into the third rail.

U vs. R war is in the same category. We all know that Putin is right and that it was NATO that came to Russia, not Russia to NATO. Hence NATO? You have got to be kidding...NATO is cuddly and peaceful. It's the evil Russia and that empire from Vladivostok to Lisbon that Putin dreams about every day... coming from the Russia haters.

Yes, morons...Russia wants Poland and Germany - again - just as I want Gypsies or serial murderers in my spare bedroom.

You never heard bill hicks ? youtube.com/watch?v=ZLIPUDlRBFA

youtube.com/watch?v=B8IvKx0c19w

But why would they be that? Germany would much rather do business with Russia again and we needed to be prodded and shoved to support Ukraine now (we are now the biggest supporter after the US)....

That doesn't makes much sense to build on a till now not really existing rather not-natural alliance....

Which markers have convinced you that Ukraine has become so pro-German?

President Duda was asked by @PolsatNewsPL whether Poland is close to "breaking its alliance with Ukraine":

"Let's not joke. First of all, let's keep calm, keep calm and once again keep calm. Too many emotions and half-truths have appeared in the media recently."

About Zelenskyy's words at the UN:

"I listened to [the sentence about Poland] with great regret. I must admit, there is some bitterness in my heart. I understand all those who feel bitter perfectly well."

I'm curious. For anything that Russia has done, in Tsarist times or Soviet times, you seem to demand an apology from modern-day Russians. I'm sure, you won't dispute this.

Why is it prejudiced for Kania to ask for Ukrainian recognition, if not an apology, of crimes committed so recently - that many of the perpetrators are still alive? Has Ukraine already issued some apology that I missed?

I have to prove here, year in and year out, that we feel ashamed for what happened in Katyn... and still I get insulted in all manner of ways.

Does getting invaded by Russia suddenly absolve one of all sins? If Russians attacked somebody, then they CAN'T be bad people, correct?


Because PO is Tusk, and Tusk is EU. PiS Poland is too independent, too reminiscent of Orban and Putin, for Ukrainian anal sphincters to truly relax. Only a Poland under Tusk, can be trusted to ensure a smooth accession to the EU, and those sweet, sweet Franco-German development packages.

Ukrainians can be a very pragmatic people when they need to be.

Well, let's not disparage traditional historical ties (see #2,295) and cold calculation. Germany going back to business as usual with Russia is rather unlikely in foreseeable future and you definitely have more soft/economic power than we do. Also, don't forget that today's Ukraine is a neo-banderist country: SS-Galizien and UPA traditions are still celebrated there, the genocidal maniacs hailed as national heroes with monuments, street names and stadiums named in their honour and their portraits hanging in government politicians' offices. They build their identity and national DNA on that. In the long run they must see themselves as German rather than Polish allies.

However, you might be right that pro-Russian sentiment is still so strong in Germany that one day Ukraine will be given a cold shoulder anyway.

I see it rather as a true case of "Ones terrorist is another ones freedom fighter"!

Ukraine is a new country, every historical rebel fighting for it's idea of independence became automatically a hero....and usually neighbours don't get a say in it.

When a country gets more self esteem in time, more security, it usually is more able and willing to look at the darker periods in its history with more differentiation, but rather not in times of danger and war....I thought especially Poland could understand that feeling and thinking.

But it really makes no sense....Ukraine is in a defensive war against Russia, the same Russia Poland fears and hates...you should be true allies...not wishing the Germans were still Nazis (Ukraine) nor fearing and acting as if the Germans are still Nazis (Poland).

It's true though, only popcorn helps!

Very true, why you think we been arming oursleves and gdp up to beejesus. i mean thos 500 himars are right next door to Ukrainian and German territory.