Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

horrible. My condolences (if it means anything) to the family and all people there.

See, that is why i suggest that Slavs return to the their old pre-Christian faith- Rodoverie. Killing Slavic children in the name of a God that is product of foreign (Jewish- with all due respect) civilization is abominable.


Exactly

It would be horrible, if it had happened. But it hasn't happened: it is just another of the lies that the Kremlin fanboys love to tell here.

Personally I take it as another worrying sign: Russian state media has cranked the propaganda up to eleven and the Kremlin is now sending increasing quantities of sophisticated weaponry over the border to Ukraine to arm its proxy troops, this may well end badly.

tell me something man. Do you believe that extermination of Russians and collapse of Russia can possible mean something good for Ukraine, Poland, for other Slavs in general?

Do you really believe that west of Europe wouldn`t swallow Ukraine and Poland, if they ever finish with Russians?

Harry, don`t you see that, no matter some antagonisms between Russians-Poles, Russians-Ukrainians, existence of Russia provide balance that at least indirectly suits Poland`s (Slavic, in general) interests? i hope you see this. But, if you see this, why negate that what we see on the scene in Ukraine, represent nothing but extermination of Russians by west of Europe, via its satellites in what is now Ukraine. As always, penetration of German ideologies stays behind attack of the west of Europe onto the Slavia.

Neither of those things are going to happen.


Yawn. Please spouting your utter bollocks about the supposedly evil plans of western Europe. Millions of Poles either live now or have lived in the last decade in just the UK alone and millions more in the other countries of western Europe. Poles now know that they have far more in common with their European cousins in western Europe than they do with cave-dwelling cretins in Russia and Serbia who mutter about Slavic unity. The people of Ukraine have also either realised that or are rapidly realising it (thanks in part to your Chetnik scum coming to help the Russian invasion of their country).


We don't see that, because it very simply is not happening. Stop with your lies.


As usual, you are lying and are utterly delusional if you think anybody is going to believe your lies.

There are Serbian settlements in what is today`s Ukraine. Those settlements are older then Ukrainian state, with all due respect. Nobody, from within Slavia or outside of Slavia, shall kill Serbs there or force them on anything, if rest of us has any power to oppose it.

And, don`t forget that supporters of Bandera aren't Ukraine as a whole, neither Banderists has mandate to represent Ukrainians.

If there was the luck those Serbian settlements in Ukraine, could become cells of creation of new Commonwealth. Banderists are those who destroying that path.

this is hilarious -Yatseniuk:

youtube.com/watch?v=8A7ZgQU32Uw#t=131
he basically says,those people who protests against rising prices,asking for increase in pensions and wages and complain for high prices are terrorists who wants to destroy Ukraine.,they are the same people who wants separation.they are FSB agents are those who ask for those things , trying to destabilize the Ukranian economy

lol..imagine...when Ukrainian economy collapses they gonna start killing protesters under terrorist act.
those guys are sick

and to add

Those (EU, NATO leading powers) who are behind Banderists, act against rest of Ukrainians, same way as they act against Poland and Serbia/Serbians. i would go that far to conclude that are even Russian actions dictated by the actions of EU/NATO leading powers. Its not Russia who reducing Polish interests in the region but older partners of Poland from within EU/NATO.

To be clear. Its not questionable that Ukraine needs reforms, changes, etc... KEY QUESTION was who shall be the one who would promote those changes. Now, thanks to EU/NATO leading powers, its not somebody who seek for best possible relations between Ukraine and Poland. For sure, its not somebody who dream of new Commonwealth.

Think about it.

Russians face pogrom in Ukraine. Sad reality of divided Slavic world, while hostile non-Slavic strangers sponsor these orgies.

In one hand, all Slavs share responsibility for it, due to their weaknesses, divisions and incompetency. i look forward to the day when would Slavs rise and found scent

The Truthseeker 'Genocide' in Eastern Ukraine E43

@Crow, your dreams of creating Slavic Union and/or new commonwealth , lets say Poland with Ukraine is not possible under any circumstances.
First lets analyze possible Polish-Ukrainian Commonwealth.

It would have to happen with referendums in both countries.
Most Poles would be against it, and as long there is a conflict in Ukraine such referendum isn't possible there.
Plus Russians would do any trick(s) not to make it happen.
Not to mention that there is no love between Ukrainians and Poles.
Ukraine is in political limbo and catastrophic in economical terms.

Hypothetically lets say that the union is signed on paper, do you expect Poland to pour money into bankrupt and corrupted Ukraine?
Poland has no money for it . And I just don't see EU helping with the money.
Totally unrealistic.

The only Slavic countries that more or less are on the same page are Czech R, Slovakia and Poland. All those 3 countries suffered from the hands Russians. And we all have a long memory.

I see in Visegard a future, maybe meaningless today but it is a foundation for the future. Can Serbs join? Sure, all current Slavic members are pro Serbian. not so much Hungary because of minorities of Hungarians in Serbia.

When NATO bombarded Serbia only the Russians were against it (officially)
And there is a big bond between Serbians and Russians. traditionally, because of bombing of Serbia and the Orthodoxy factor.

Now Poland, Czechs, Slovaks are pro Serbian but anti Russia who openly dream of the new empire, the EuroAsian empire.
(the 3+1 will not work as we are seeing what is happening now in Ukraine.)
Serbs on the other hand are pro Russian and I do know that they like Poles. But how do you eat different views of current Visegard members on the subject of Russia with the one of the Serbs?

Also I was reading in many places that Russians are starting talking of annexing Finland. True it was on Russian Nationalistic websites/Forums or places like Facebook.

Same goes to some Polish Nationalists, a dream of getting Lvov back and some other territories, now in today Ukraine and Belorussia.
Unrealistic, but that is only daydreaming of few.

Russians on the other hand, are more united on the subject of annexing Finland sometimes in the future.
Rumor? in every rumor there is a seed of the truth..
BTW. Finland is not NATO member.

americablog.com/2014/03/putin-wants-finland-baltic-states-says-former-top-adviser.html

huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/03/30/vladimir-putin-conquer-finland-_n_5058483.html

guardianlv.com/2014/03/vladimir-putin-wants-finland/

independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html

In my opinion Putin is extremely smart, know how to play his cards. and is toying with EU and the US. Probing how far he can go and get away with it.

BTW the biggest coup d'etat of Putin was converting from Atheism to Orthodoxy. which in my view is phony.
A former communist a colonel in KGB saw "Angels" and converted, he even made a pilgrimage to Mount Athos and fooled the Greeks, who dream of rebirth of Byzantium empire.

Putin is using any weapon at his disposal to get ppl on his side. Whatever works. End justifying the means.
And he should get an Oscar for the best Actor on the Russian political scene.

So no, I do not see a Slavic Union nor any commonwealth any time soon.
Ukraine is on the path of what was happening in the former Yugoslavia after Titos death.
Where do the Ukrainian rebels are getting weapons from?
And who will help with weapons to the legit Ukrainian government?

there were lots of military bases,tank graveyards in east Ukraine.like those:

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572149/Stunning-images-huge-abandoned-tank-graveyard-Ukraine-machines-come-retirement-tensions-Russia-continue-escalate.html

Artemvisk is one place within rebel area where there is lots of tanks and other equipment stored

liveleak.com/view?i=caf_1403370298

Base captured:

- 221 tanks
- 288 BTR
- 12 artillery units
- 18 "Grad"
- 183 BMP
- 12 mortars.

liveleak.com/view?i=caf_1403370298#jCTCym5jpDl5dHT9.99

plus at the beginning of conflict lots of former army and military personnel,joined rebels and even if not joined they surrendered their weapons to them.

there are rumors that Russia supply them with gear tho no solid evidence of this yet appeared

@gregy741


I know all about it. but for any prolonged conflict one needs supplies for this hardware to work. So called ammunition.
Not something you can smuggle in in a suitcase.

ammunition depots,military bases and so on.
thay dont have much heavy equipment to begin with.only small arms.few tanks 2-3 GRADs some BTR-s,APC-s.thats why Rebels getting hammered every time they go into open.

it is possible they getting some supplies from Russia,whenever those supplies are state organised or Russian oligarchs buying them, with Putin looking in other direction,allowing it to cross border.i don't know.

there are accusations that Russia supply them with gear but as i said,no evidence so far

There is always the blackmarket.

@gregy741

Not only ammunition, but parts, fuel etc.
Any illegal smuggling of supplies from Russia, would be well planned.
Russia ain't stupid to expose herself with arming the rebels.

Have you ever served in army? no matter what type of unit.?
Having Ak-47 in hand it ain't enough.
There must be a command structure, officers with brain to do planning both tactical and strategical.
I know that there is tons of ex-military among rebels. But being a veteran it ain't enough.

Yes there is no clear evidence of Russians helping the rebels.
same as in Crimea, A lot of "green people" nothing more, As Putin said it is so easy to buy military uniforms, anyone can get one.

Talking about Crimea. At this moment they are cut off from Russia. They need water, electricity from the Ukraine and zillion other things so people can live.

Using ferries won't work for prolonged time.
So it is in Russia interest to get a nice land corridor between Russia and Crimea. Exactly right were the fighting goes on in Eastern Ukraine.

Sevastopol is very important for Russians, naturally deep port for their Black Sea fleet. with access to Mediterranean Sea.
Where the Russian warships in Syrian port come from? From Sevastopol

first of all,there are lots of veterans among rebels,even former Ukrainian army oficers, berkut and some volunteers from Russia,with command expirience and so on.

example is strelkov who use to be contractor for GRU.
as for ammo and gear
Donbass region was the most industrial region in Ukraine, they have enough engineers and technicians to repair those old tanks, BMPs and other armored vehicles in captured tank depots

plus they actually capture something everyday from Ukrainian army.here from today:
tanks and NOVA-S captured:


they have this project to build bridge,Chinese companies won it.

Lyashkos beloved child..the Azov batalion:

bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28329329

@gregy741

I prefer to have land over the bridge, bridge is nice addition why not. Plus Putin may use this argument as follows " Hey look, we are building the bridge, We aren't interested in Eastern Ukraine.

I just don't trust this dude.

Any bridge can be destroyed in one second.

As for repairing tanks or other heavy equipment I tend in some degree to agree with you
but again, if broken tank is 100 km from factory you need logistics to move this tank to factory.
And very visible from the air, but I do not consider Ukrainian Air Force as a real deal threat.
Unless something is minor (most of the time that is the case) and the parts and technicians can fix it right where the tank is idle

But I have doubts for any real military command structure with planning grabbed from ex-military rebels, no matter the rank.
Besides planning, you need real time intelligence and above average communication (encrypted) system in place..
And scattered places of fighting proves my point that they don't have that.

Plus I see on the side of rebels few sheriffs. Too many cooks in the kitchen.
Same as it has happened in Yugoslavia in few points of time, no unity only shared sentiment.

well..there was a massive problems with chains of commands and incompetent commanders(like khodokovsky)and different units acting independently,even some criminal bands were operating.

now its seems that since Strelkov become minister of defense,he put some military structure together.it takes time to political and military structures to take shape in new semi state.

Semi-state? only in the dreams of Kremlin fan-boys.

ok self proclaimed republic..better?
copied from militaryphotos.net:

Summary of the interview with POWs:
1. They are just conscripts who were partialy mobilized for 10 days re-training, no talking about obligation to fight in Donbas, only stay on guard in Vinnitsa region. By 16th of July one of them has spent 114 days in service. Draft evasion was said to be punished severely.

2. Militia allows them to call to their familiesand inform them. They say that Kiev doesn't inform POWs relatives.
3. Their relatives say that official Kiev doesn't bother to somehow comment or deal with their imprisonment by any other mean than: " We know that they are there" DOT

4. POWS are treated in prison better than in the field where they stationed. They are fed, good treated, but they are sick of sitting in sells.

5. It seems that Kiev has forgotten its soldiers, no UA representatives or others has ever come to examine POWs' condition.
6. Their point of view on, called by Kiev, separatists and terrorists was oblivious. They were told that there are masked gunmen who torture civilians and UA army was presumed to save them. But when they came they say that it was all lie. Why they are there? To kill lads just like them?

7. What army does in these place anyway? If it is CTO then police and SF must be here, not army.

Lad in black skirt with red leaf is Roman Musevich. Lad in cyan-white skirt with black lines is Viktor Pugach.

From Greg's link


Well that is interesting and clearly not neo nazi in any way.


Well the BBC is clearly lying we have been told there are no Nazis in Ukraine just naughty boys.

@gregy741

I get the feeling that you are pro-Russia in this conflict, of course i might be mistaken.
Personally I try to be neutral.

Today Ukraine borders are by product of the Soviet Union. where borders between republics were meaningless.
Russians were migrating to all republics. After the collapse of Soviet Union all that changed. when the former republics declared independence one by one.

For any country to exist relatively in peace and harmony few principle must take place.
1) Common language
2) Common religion
3) Common traditions and culture
4) Equality and cooperation for mutual benefit.

I see only religion as common, nothing else. Thus i see the collapse of today Ukraine (even without Russian influence)
A Yugoslavian syndrome so to speak. Until death of Tito all was functioning, then the s*** hit the fan.
mixed-marriages among ethnic groups, Croats moved to Serbia or Bosnia, Serbians moved to Croatia Montenegro etc etc. And to inflame the situation they had 3 religions.

So during the civil war, there was total confusion and chaos.. Also many cooks.

Back to Ukraine, just before the conflict escalated, the Ukrainians declared the Ukrainian language as the only one official lingo.. A big mistake.
One Czech government official ( I forgot his name) said only stupid would make such move/law.

As we all know as long the bellies are full, nobody cares about politics (early Gierek times for example) but as soon the goods vanish from shelves of supermarkets people become first grouchy then angry.

Ukraine is bankrupted due to the oligarchy. And as long there is a conflict nobody will give them any help in the form of money. No Russians and no EU..

The initial loan from Russia then from EU worth about 12 milliard (billions in US terminology) US dollars won't happen until East and West Ukrainians come to their senses.

And that won't happen, they crossed the point of no return.

Just look at this linguistic/ethnic map of Ukraine.

washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/12/09/this-one-map-helps-explain-ukraines-protests

That's why after WW II the Poles were moved from Kresy/East to the western Poland in place of the Germans who were evicted from their lost territory drawn by Yalta dudes.

Stalin knew exactly why such move is needed. No problems with any potential minority resistance in the future.

wrong..am pro rebels for many reasons.not pro Russian not anty Russian,i am ignorant regarding Russian geopolitics ,and neutral to Putin and warm towards Russian people.


well Kazakhstan is massive mixture of religions and cultures and its working .as long as people respect each other rights it is possible to coexist.

but i Ukraine neofascist government stomped every possible way on the rights of russian speaking people.overthroving yanukovitch,trying to ban russian language,killind deputies of region patry,and so on and on.but then again,what do you expect from ppl like Lyashko?

they have themselves to blame for current situation.
not to mention,Ukraine was political creation made by 2 alcoholics,made with no regard of ethnicity and historical factors(like Crimea example),and no regard what population think and wanted.we saw all the time they were fist fighting in their parliament.

Bingo

We can add UAF and Antifa dudes to the pot but they are lefties anyhow

What Winston Churchill said?

"the future Fascists will call them self's Anti-Fascist" How ironic

This makes me angry.
huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/16/obama-ukraine_n_5592914.html

Time for sanctions were before annexation of Crimea.

Now personally I am against any sanctions. Lets Ukraine sort things out on their own.

Besides anything that Obama touches becomes fiasco, Libya, Egypt, Syria, prolonging war in Iraq and pointless presence in Afghanistan.
And now He is thinking sending troops to Jordan. Let them sort things out on their own in the Near East, they want Islamic state? so be it

did you listen his statement today?
he said every challenges in today's complex world required one thing- american leadership"

That is good for American newspapers. American leadership for whom?
American leadership is long gone. US cannot solve it's own domestic problems let alone the ones in foreign lands. The national debt is astronomical, one cannot print money forever.

Every time I go to some mini-market or some mini grocery chain joint, I see people buying potato chips worth $2 and they pay using credit card. The whole nation is living on borrowed time.

US moved it's own factories to Asia, mainly China. The so called Blue Collar jobs are gone. Graduating college is meaningless.
They should fix America first and then give example abroad how to go about it.
I am so fed up that I am thinking of moving out of US.

And no I didn't hear his speech today.. I do not own TV set nor radio (except HAM radio)

If America will start getting involved in Jordan because of ISIS, they will never get out from there.

And they lost Ukraine before and right after the annexation of Crimea, in other words the credibility of sanctions threats against Russia lost it's merit.

The last good American president was Ronald Reagan R.I.P, his tactic was Facta Non Verba

What we see on the scene is that Charnybog unleashed many ugly things on Slavs

Good read: What's Rong with Wrussia?

good description of Doneck Republic situation with west Ukrainians.they have right to defend themselves from such neighbor.

" which means that Russians have the fascist system and the fascist ruler they "deserve"-wrote this "political scientist and poet"

the only openly fascists are sitting in Kiev government and parliament.

you really cant stop urself spawning utter BS written by some Ukrainian punks

We have also been told that there are neo-nazis all over the place when it comes to the Ukrainian government. Specifically we were told that "Neo-Nazis are in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education the right sector and justice parties control these ministries." However, when it was pointed out that none of the men who were in charge of those ministries were neo-Nazis (or from the right sector and justice parties, all that the person who had told us lies about Neo-Nazis being in Control of Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education (i.e. Barney) could do was start throwing around insults.


a) No they are not.
b) I'd like to say that I'm amazed that after you have been caught lying in this thread so many times you have the gall to complain about other people supposedly lying; I'd like to say that but in reality we all know your hypocrisy has no limits.


a) So what? I buy pretty much everything with my credit card, get the discount, and then clear it in full on the due date with money that's been earning me interest in the bank; that's just simple money management.

b) How do you know it's a credit card and not a debit card?

Dimitry Medvedev about sanctions today:

A few words about the sanctions against Russia.
Any sanctions - is evil, they will never bring the apparent success and can not cause unacceptable harm to the economy. International experience shows that sanctions have no one to kneel.

Sanctions against Russia - are illegal because they are not based on UN resolutions, that is administered in random order.
Those sanctions, which the U.S. used to great teams of Russian companies and banks, unfortunately, will only contribute to further growth of anti-American and anti-European sentiment in our country. We can go back to the 1980s. This is sad. If the goal of our partners in this, it will soon be reached.

As for the economy, we reconstruct the development model, go to import substitution, using domestic sources of growth. This is normal and even useful, but the sanctions pressure on Russia can not affect the budget planning. We will have to pay more attention to spending on defense and security, and all social obligations to the citizens we perform, the money is there.

And the last. All these sanctions will not help Ukraine. Nothing.

Tell that to supporters of apartheid.


Perhaps Russia would like to stop occupying her neighbours, occupations which are not based on UN resolutions, before whining about suffering consequences from those illegal invasions and occupations?


Sounds good to me, comrade: your evil regime then was brought down and your evil regime now will be brought down too. Bring it on.