USA News and Poland - part 18

Your numbers are accurate, Anti, but we have to take a look at the methodology, because statistics can be used to prove pretty much anything.

So, let's take a look at context and precise framing of the research that arrived at these numbers.

It defines middle mass as those earning between two-thirds and twice the U.S. median household income, and upper class as those earning more than roughly double the median; such definition seems dubious to me because, in Polish realities, it would put me comfortably in the upper class which is, frankly, ridiculous, and I don't think this definition works in the US either. Here's why...

- median household income today is higher than in the 1970s, but not by a margin that offsets rising costs in key categories;
- the most important categories have outpaced income growth:

-- housing prices grew far faster than wages
-- healthcare, much faster
-- higher education, explosive growth
-- childcare and health insurance also saw very large increases.

These are non-optional expenses (well, maybe with the exception of higher education) which means that these days households struggle more with foundational costs. Therefore, even some of those who - according to the research you cited - are in the "upper class" today can afford significantly less when it comes to foundational costs than "middle class" members in 1970s. And that's after 50 years of liberal capitalism, which we are told is supposed to increase the financial well-being of societies!

So, to sum up - in the US since 1970s, we've had a growing lower class (by about 4%), a hollowed-out middle (by 11%), with much less financial buffer than its 1970s counterpart, and 7% growth in the so-called "upper class" which - in the adopted methodology - consists in significant part of people who can afford less than middle class members in 1970s could (after half a century of capitalism!).

If this is happening in the richest country of the world and the centre of world liberal capitalism, then it means something is fundamentally wrong with the system.

You are middle class when you don't check prices in food stores.

Food? Food is not an indication of anything unless you live in Africa... or Middle Ages. ;)

We formally forget to say good bye to Tampon Tim today. He should be wearing handcuffs in his near future:)

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In approximately every third food purchase, the prices do not match the offer... but none of the customers check this.

In "communist" Poland, nobody was asking how much. We were ecstatic it was there...

But I am not picking on the USA, far from it. The same things, proportionally, are happening in Poland as well - we have families who have to rely on clothes and shoes coupons in "Szlachetna Paczka" to be able to buy winter clothes for their children, and people who can afford to buy a $10 million apartment in the city centre overlooking Motława, with a smaller "guest apartment" below and an underground garage for 8 luxury cars (just one of recent examples in Gdańsk). Such ridiculous wealth gap and overconsumption is unsustainable in the long run, and if we fail to come up with a systemic solution to human greed, our children will be living in a much worse world than we do.

We punish people's excessive violence through criminal penalties for murder or aggravated assault. We punish overwhelming lust through criminal penalties for rape and sexual coercion. In the same way we have to punish unrestrained greed (not only direct theft but also inordinate consumption).

Americans tend to use terms like middle class or upper middle class differently to Europe. I remember reading something that described factory workers as middle class and doctors and sales managers as upper middle class and falling about laughing.


Food shops? No. They just means you're comfortably off and either aren't keeping track of spending very closely or have already budgeted for it.


It's sad to still see people queuing outside churches.


You should see the area I live in. Newer houses (or rezydencje) have security lodges and high walls with metal fences on top.a mile away there are people living in poverty.

Szlachetna Paczka is not an ecclesiastical charity.


That's one thing that I despise thoroughly - South-America-style guarded housing areas. We used to look up to Western Europe but in some aspects we're imitating Brazil. :-/

Indeed. These things, like food banks, simply shouldn't exist. There is enough wealth in society for everyone to have a decent life and a good quality home.


They have those as well, however near me it's individual houses like that. Vulgarly ostentatious houses too. The guy next to me is in the top ten in the rich list and has a fake antebellum mansion that is usually empty because he's on a beach or yacht somewhere. And meanwhile, the city has thousands of hidden homeless.

Exactly.

I would even go as far as to say that there is enough wealth in the world for everyone in every society to have a decent life. The key, however, is in limiting consumption. If an average Chinese consumed as much as an average American, we would need three additional Planet Earths, so some societies will have to limit their ridiculous consumption levels or the whole system will come crashing down on our heads; and later we introduce the limits the more drastic the limitations will have to be.


Oh, no.. not one of those. At least tell me that he got the columns right; nothing ruins a fake antebellum mansion faster than Home-Depot-Tuscan style. 😂

Mandeville would tell you, in his Fable of the Bees, that this would eventually lead to less prosperity for all. That is - vice is economically necessary. It drives progress.

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Personally - I think you need some kind of authoritarian approach to these things (big surprise!).

Singapore does it right, and it's still one of the richest countries in the world.

Want a Ferrari or a Range Rover - prepare to pay 3-5X the global average.

Housing is for living first, and an asset second. Top marginal rates on "second" investment properties are in excess of 30% of annual rent value. If you are some rich foreigner, then prepare to pay 60%+ of the PROPERTY VALUE through the so called "Additional Buyer's Stamp Duty". This is why even billionaires rent in Singapore, in many cases, and there are far fewer trophy homes than you would expect.

The genius who created this country, understood that economic inequality breeds political risk (honestly Lee Kuan Yew is the GOAT).

He saw that Anglo-American tolerance of grotesque inequality lead to a see-sawing political system, where the pendulum swings from one end of the spectrum to the other. He also saw that Scandinavian egalitarianism means no one wants to move to a place, except people in need of support (while leading to a constant hemorrhaging of your own rich people). So instead he made this asiatic authoritarian technocracy - which I really admire.

By the way - 80% of people in Singapore live in state built housing.

At some point I was reading Orwell's "The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius", and there he had this very clever line:

"The lady in the Rolls-Royce car is more damaging to morale than a fleet of Goering's bombing planes." (this was during the Blitz).

This really produced an impression on me. I must've been 16 when I read it, but I think about it all the time.

Now Orwell could be very grumpy, and I didn't agree with him always, but this was on point.

Theocracy.

Something like the Soviet Union but built on Catholic Social Teaching.


He was a very decent fellow - educated but not snobbish, and acutely sensitive to the fate of ordinary people.


Lady in a Rolls-Royce or a guy in a $10 million penthouse in a city where housing prices went up so much as to make it nearly impossible for young people to afford their first, even a very modest, flat.

... and then, when Putin comes, the guys in penthouses and politicians in their fake pre-war villas will expect the young paupers to grab AK-74s and defend their wealth with a loud "Hurraaah!".

Things never change. Putting on my dialectical materialist hat - history as class struggle:

Slaves and masters.

Plebeians and patricians.

Early bourgeoisie and nobility.

Socialists and conservatives.

"Things are more the way they are now than they ever have been."
Dwight Eisenhower NOT Yogi Berra lol

This is how Brits see things and report to the world:

Maryville woman killed by Illinois State Police trooper during traffic stop

Implied conclusion: The Illinois Gestapo pulled her over and shot her to avoid writing a ticket.

Now Novi Press:

Black bit*ch, using a stolen car as a weapon, gets shot as she attempts to run over and murder a cop.

All true, but not according to the script that says:

Black crimes - excusable because of slavery

White self-defense - inexcusable. Must call 911 first...even if you are a cop whose life is about to end in the next 3 seconds...

When will whites become a minority?

Demographers project that non-Hispanic white people will become a minority in the U.S. around 2045, falling below 50% of the total population,

That's how feminist and globalist mafia practice white genocide...by sending women to work because (1) raising kids is too boring, and (2) the husband lost his factory job or had to make room for an H1B Indian.

.Why would they do that? After all, feminists and globalists are white too.

That's why I often refer to them as suicidal. See Muslim-welcoming British suicidal azzholes...Even some Muslims tell them this...but the morons still don't believe it...

Finally, Trump told Euros what I have been saying for a very long time:

You are a liability and a threat to the US and the world order...Your green obsessions and immigration policy are not sustainable.

You are not an ally but fascists pretending to be morally superior philosophers...

Another ally like you, and the US would have a very serious problem...

Just 2 minutes is enough to realize how serious this whole Euro crap is ... at Russia's doorstep...for extra excitement...

I admit I have been critical of Euros for many things, except for their sense of humor.

They were hiding it until now, when the US decided to take possession of Greenland, keep Russia and China out, and make Europe militarily stronger.

"It will be colonialism!!!! You can't do THAT! How dare you!" ...but please stay and keep NATO humming...for your benefit, of course...

That was funny in so many ways ...wasn't it...

@GefreiterKania

I think your interpretation is a bit off. However, You have brought the argument to where it should be, IMO. The argument isn't so much about class, but about rising cost in important sectors.

IMO, the argument about gaps between the rich and poor is fruitless. The real arguments should be about drivers of cost.

Everything in this sinful world is a bit off.

However, I watched way too many cost of living/inflation rants from Americans on YT and TikTok to fall for the "capitalist heaven with upwards mobility chances for everyone" fairy tale. ;)

@GefreiterKania

You meed to stay away from YT and TikTok-I want to jump off a very tall building after a minute on them. X ain't much better. One thing social media has proven is the world isn't suffering from a shortage of morons and retards.

And, yea, anyone who claims America is capitalist upward mobility heaven is full of excrement. They are not much different than the retards who claim collectivism is a heaven of equitable treatment and wanting for nothing.

Its about time. Europe is becoming new caliphate.

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Oh really? What about the deportation of illegal immigrants? Trump is doing it at the same rate the Obama administration was doing it. If you're happy, clap your hands. Lol!
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It is, you can get into debt to be able to order pizza. That's progress of some kind.

I need to stay away from PF as well, but it's just too addictive.


I treat it as my little personal achievement that the word 'retard' is in such a wide use on this board now. It's a great word that for some time fell into disuse (due to political correctness); great to see it returning with a vengeance.