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George Floyd authopsy report



johnny reb
7 Jun 2020  #61

the cops knew is this guy came up on them, started swatting at them, and wouldn't back away.

The cops had no idea what his intentions were or if he was armed.

That's not what the video in my post #59 looked like to me.

Miloslaw
7 Jun 2020  #62

Nor to me.... just OTT and stupid policing.
Do cops get any training at all in the USA besides how ro beat someone up and shooting skills?

AntV
7 Jun 2020  #63

That's not what the video in my post #59 looked like to me.

I disagree. Besides, the cop's push was very mild. I think those of you who are being critical of the cops in this situation are armchair Monday morning quarterbacking.

Cops do some over the top stuff at times, but this isn't one of them, IMO. Let's not forget that this happened when riots and chaos were going on.

Do cops get any training at all in the USA besides how ro beat someone up and shooting skills?

They get a lot. On average they get 2100 hours of training while in the academy, another 500 hours of on-the-job instruction when they first hit the street, and then they have mandatory training each year as their careers progress. De-escalation and community oriented policing has been a major emphasis of most police training the past 15 years or so.

The negative things we see most of the time on news broadcasts and social media are usually not the full story, and when they are legitimate police brutality that incident isn't the norm. We rarely, if ever, see cops using restraint; which they do most of the time--doesn't make for good TV or fit the narrative.

You mean like when they took Jesus and prayer out of our schools this b.s. accelerated

That's part of it, but I'm talking more about the curriculum and content of what's being taught. Fragmenting history to only highlight the negative and not contextualizing events, the suspension of teaching Civics, developing the perception that emotions are superior to reason (the self-esteem movement), teaching that society is nothing but disparate groups in tensions with each other (women's studies, black studies, gender studies), etc., etc., etc.

Chemikiem
8 Jun 2020  #64

Who asked the limeys to get involved?

Perhaps, the Euros will get it thru their thick heads now.

Bit unnecessary don't you think? The death of George Floyd is headline news worldwide and here in the UK there have been Black Lives Matter protests in most big cities. I don't know why you have to take every comment about the US as a personal affront, one would have to be blind not to see that your country is going through a particularly challenging time. I have family in three different US states btw, so I do have an interest in what's going on over there.

It probably would be unimaginable that such a technique wouldn't be acceptable.

I disagree with you on this. I get where you are coming from. Being a cop is a tough job, especially in the US where citizens are armed and they never know what is going to happen when they stop someone. Hats off to them, I wouldn't want that job. I'm sure the majority of cops are decent people who are doing the job to make a difference and whose intentions are good.

However, I don't believe that any circumstance warrants that type of restraint, it's simply too dangerous a technique. I'm sure there must be less harmful ways of restraining people than that, and in the event of a life threatening situation, a cop is more likely to shoot rather than take the time to force someone to the floor and apply this type of technique. Besides which, In this particular case the guy wasn't even resisting arrest, and there were four police officers present so hardly a matter of life or death.

I don't see the veracity of the perception that blacks are preyed upon by police or that blacks are denied opportunity.

Ok, I'm not going to refute the statistics you've posted regarding police shootings and violent crime, but I would be interested to know how often black people generally are stopped and searched for example. There have been problems in the UK with this which has led to much distrust of the police over here:

theguardian.com/law/2019/jan/26/met-police-disproportionately-use-stop-and-search-powers-on-black-people

How do you know that the same thing isn't happening in the US? Unless an arrest is made, would there even be records kept of those stopped and searched?If this type of thing is happening, it would go a long way to explaining why cops are perceived as racists for example.BTW I do believe racial discrimination still exists, and I've witnessed this first hand in my country.

Regarding opportunity. Yes, things have moved on, but humour me here, if a black person is born in the projects, how equal would you say that person's opportunities are going to be? Chances are that even if that person wants to succeed in life, resists the gang culture, drugs etc, that person is not going to be attending a good school, getting the best education and results, and having access to good jobs.I would say a black person in those circumstances is going to have a far tougher time getting ahead in life.

There is also the white perception that most blacks are drug dealers, gang members, lazy, less intelligent etc. Read some more posts in US threads on this forum to see exactly what I mean, you won't find a single positive thing to be said about black people. I wonder how that translates to the wider picture in US society and how much that belief impacts on black people generally.

I am also curious to know what the ratio of black to white home ownership is, as this is obviously a marker of success. Are they generally living in decent and affordable housing? Or are they predominantly living in social housing where effectively they are still segregated........

These are just a few things I pondered over, waiting for the knives to come out now :D

it was jjst an unfortunate accident.

An accident happens when for example, you step into the road without looking and get hit by a car. George Floyd would still be alive if that cop hadn't put a knee on his neck for over 8 minutes. That is not an accident.

Spike31
8 Jun 2020  #65

George Floyd criminal record

"Floyd had been sentenced to five years in prison in 2009 for aggravated assault stemming from a robbery where Floyd entered a woman's home, pointed a gun at her stomach and searched the home for drugs and money, according to court records"




Crow
8 Jun 2020  #66

Judge Dread would kill him. But even him would read him his right to die.

Chemikiem
8 Jun 2020  #67

IMO, this and the permeation of neo-marxism in schools has given us our current cultural crisis.

I also think you raise valid points here, I can see the way the school curriculum is going and I find that worrying.Overall though, I feel attitudes on both sides have to change. Throwing billions of dolllars at the problem clearly hasn't worked and isn't the answer.

Miloslaw
8 Jun 2020  #68

That is not an accident.

What I meant was that the Police Officer did not intend to kill George Floyd, what he did was stupid and OTT but it was manslaughter rather than murder.

Chemikiem
8 Jun 2020  #69

What I meant was that the Police Officer did not intend to kill George Floyd

Ok, sorry Milo, got the wrong end of the stick. I don't think he meant to kill him either, if this was in the UK, i feel it would be a manslaughter charge. Not sure about charges and how they work in the US.

Ziemowit
8 Jun 2020  #70

a knee on his neck for over 8 minutes

it was manslaughter rather than murder.

Putting a knee on someone's neck for 8 minutes without losing the hold even if that person is murmurig he can't breath any longer is certainly a murder. Or you think that any of the black race is able to survive without breathing for up to 16 minutes? If so, then it was a manslaughter or even an accident.

I think the cop didn't realize he was being filmed. If he wasn't filmed, I'm sure the cop would have been declared not guilty in court as often happens in similar cases in the US where the victim is black and the offender is white.

George Floyd criminal record

So you think it a less severe crime to murder someone with a criminal record than to murder someone without it?

Miloslaw
8 Jun 2020  #71

Putting a knee on someone's neck for 8 minutes without losing the hold is certainly a murder

Whilst in no way trying to defend the police officer, I don't think he intended to kill him.
As we all know in a situation like that time flies and he probably did not realise how long had passed.
Having said that, what he did was way OTT and idiotic.
Without intent, that would be manslaughter in the UK.
Correct me if I am wrong but in many American states I think it might be third degree murder.

johnny reb
8 Jun 2020  #72

I pondered over, waiting for the knives to come out now

This has been a long time coming Pam and the government and police know that there is a very good chance of that happening if they keep this tyranny up.

Why do you think they keep trying to take our guns away from us.
And Trump calling in the U.S. Military will be worthless because most of the troops and police have already stated that they would never open fire on their fellow U.S. Citizens.

Putting a knee on someone's neck for 8 minutes even if that person is murmurig he can't breath any longer is certainly a murder.

Of course it is and in America they always stack the charges like they did here with a life in prison without any chance of parole sentence which will be pled down to a charge that maybe only has a twenty year sentence with chance of parole after serving thirteen years.

They do this to guarantee a conviction as in which one would you agree to if you were the guilty as hell cop ?
By the way Ziemowit very good post as you are spot on.

Joker
8 Jun 2020  #73

Floyd entered a woman's home, pointed a gun at her stomach and searched the home

Too bad they don't have the on the 3 strike law in Minn. He would still be alive and in Prison where he belongs.

Why should anyone feel bad for such a violent criminal?

in many American states I think it might be third degree murder.

Even though Floyd was your typical ghetto thug, he didn't deserve to die on the street. 99% of Cops are decent, but this one is a POS and deserves the gas chamber.

Miloslaw
8 Jun 2020  #74

This is by far the most balanced, level headed and honest assessment of this incident that I have seen.
It is quite long video but worth watching to the end.

youtu.be/JtPfoEvNJ74

Joker
8 Jun 2020  #75

@Miloslaw
Candice Owens is one of the most intelligent young black ladies on the planet.
They should listen to her, but the lefie msm always tries to discredit her. Or anyone with good ideas. They would rather bring out race pimps like Al Sharpton to create more havoc.

Miloslaw
8 Jun 2020  #76

Candice Owens is one of the most intelligent young black ladies on the planet

Good to hear.
I don't normally post on subjects to do with American Politics, because, quite frankly, I am too ignorant.
But I am trying to learn...what do Americans think about Larry Elder?
From an outsiders point of view he seems sensible to me.
I need help from you Yanks here.....

youtu.be/IFqVNPwsLNo

Spike31
8 Jun 2020  #77

So you think it a less severe crime to murder someone with a criminal record than to murder someone without it?

I'm painting George Floyd's background. So far we know that he was a drug addict with violent criminal past.

Why should anyone feel bad for such a violent criminal?

A looting mob - I mean peaceful protesters - does. And they've made him their hero. I will be interesting to see how the trail is going to look like. Mainstream media and "public opinion" has convicted that cop long before a trial.

AntV
9 Jun 2020  #78

how often black people generally are stopped and searched for example

Well, it's difficult to know. But, again, I think it's more perception and about police patrolling where crime is higher. The notion that whites don't get pulled over and searched is simply not true. But, the claim that blacks get pulled over disproportionately may hold some merit. The question is why? Is it because blacks are stigmatized? I use to think they were. However, a cop buddy of mine challenged me to do an experiment: when driving around try to identify the race of a driver. It wasn't easy to do during the daytime and nearly impossible during the nighttime. And, on the occasion I was able to pull up next to them and see the person in car, my guess was wrong at least half of the time. So, it made me more malleable to his claim they don't know who they're pulling over most of the time.

Another reason why the claim may have merit is because police have more active patrols in areas where crime is higher. Many of these high crime areas are predominantly black, therefore a higher chance cops will pull over a black person. Is this driven by racism or simply fulfilling the duty of the police to deter and fight crime?

if a black person is born in the projects, how equal would you say that person's opportunities are going to be?

For sure, not as good as someone who grew up in a middle-class home with mom and dad at home. But, this does not disprove that opportunities exist. It's more of a matter of proving how socio-economics effect t people. Whites also grow up in poverty, and those that do suffer the same results as blacks. They are less likely to take advantage of the opportunities that are out there for anyone who wants to take advantage of them. That's really my point, race isn't a factor, but sociological factors are what typically determines whether one takes advantage of opportunities.

The economist, Thomas Sowell, says something like: the poor are poor because they don't or won't produce.

There is also the white perception that most blacks are drug dealers, gang members, lazy, less intelligent etc

Yeah, and that's as untrue as saying blacks are preyed on by police or aren't given equal opportunity. Plus, it's a despicable perception.

I am also curious to know what the ratio of black to white home ownership is

There's a sizable gap, but that doesn't automatically discount other markers of success or prove lack of opportunity. After the housing implosion of 2008, blacks haven't entered back into the housing market. It'd be interesting to know why.

In America, poor folks are typically given a housing voucher. There aren't as many subsidized housing project as there once was. As far as affordable housing, the ability to afford a house isn't dependent on race, but credit risk and income. It also depends on where you live: San Francisco is very expensive, whereas Des Moines, Iowa isn't; so housing more affordable--but, again, it's independent of race

You've got good questions, that deserve good answers, but I'm exhausted to go any further.

@Miloslaw

Candace Owens sounds a lot like AntV. :)

Larry Elder is esteemed amongst conservatives and loathed by liberals. I think he's fantastic. If you're interested in other black voices like his check out Thomas Sowell and Shelby Steele. But, i say, who gives a damn about race, their thinking is clear, cogent, and well-reasoned.

Joker
9 Jun 2020  #79

Mainstream media and "public opinion

This past Sunday in Chicago 18 ppl were shot and murdered ( a new record)

Interesting enough, not one word from the mainstream media or black lives matter.

Dont dead blacks in Chicago count or are they being quiet because the city and state are 100% controlled by Democrats?

More black s die in Chicago, compared to war zones like Afghanistan or Iraq

Tacitus
9 Jun 2020  #80

As we all know in a situation like that time flies and he probably did not realise how long had passed.

I just wonder what kind of training police officers in the USA receive ? When I practiced judo and before we learned choke holds, we were given a very throughout lecture about the potential danger of assaulting the neck and other areas, and how someone could quickly lose consciousness and die. Our teacher even told us a personal story how he once subjugated a drunkard who attacked him, but had to give him CPR afterwards.

Surely no police officer can claim that they were never told about the risks of those procedures?

jon357
9 Jun 2020  #81

I just wonder what kind of training police officers in the USA receive

Evidently far less training in control/restraint than any U.K. psychiatric nurse or even a care assistant or support worker or social services.

Crow
9 Jun 2020  #82

Chicago ..... 100% controlled by Democrats

Shame

Miloslaw
9 Jun 2020  #83

This past Sunday in Chicago 18 ppl were shot and murdered

I read about it.It is mindblowing......is that mainly black on black?
In these tough times the crazies seem to be getting crazier.....

I just wonder what kind of training police officers in the USA receive ?

I asked this question the other day and got a poor, wilting response.
The evidence seems to be very little and their screening process seems ro be very poor too as one of the cops in the George Floyd story had a criminal record....

delphiandomine
9 Jun 2020  #84

The evidence seems to be very little

It seems that it's entirely down to the police department and that there's no real minimum standards.

medium.com/@OfcrACab/confessions-of-a-former-bastard-cop-bb14d17bc759 - this is worth a read, as it shows how poor the training can be.

Maybe the US needs some sort of "national community police" where they have training based on conflict resolution, all to high national standards and where the training is carried out well away from their home forces? I'm thinking about a dispute breaking out in a black community - sending some highly trained black officers to go and sort the argument is always going to be way more effective than sending some white armed police.

Miloslaw
9 Jun 2020  #85

there's no real minimum standards.

That is appalling.....

some highly trained black officers to go and sort the argument

It can't be that difficult to do and much more sensible.

Joker
9 Jun 2020  #86

I read about it.It is mindblowing......is that mainly black on black?

100% black on black, it goes on every weekend.

My neighborhood is 100% white and the crime rate was "0" last year.

more effective than sending some white armed police.

Ive been saying this for a long time. They're plenty of black cops on the force too. They probably dont like dealing with these out of control idiots.

this is worth a read, as it shows how poor the training can be.

He seems disgruntled, probably was a crop failure, it happens..

I know a few guys that went thru the police academy and its not easy. You have to be a college grad now as well. Most of these guys are ex-military so the lack of training story doesn't have much credibility.

johnny reb
9 Jun 2020  #87

It seems that it's entirely down to the police department and that there's no real minimum standards.

There is no truth to that at all delph.
You have a pis poor source.

Most of these guys are ex-military so the lack of training story doesn't have much credibility.

These Brits try their damnedest to spread any negative propaganda they can towards the U.S.A.
Are there any Muslim No Go Zones in the U.S.A. where our police refuse to go ?
Our cops would make mince meat out of the Bobby Boys.

Joker
9 Jun 2020  #88

You have a pis poor source.

Its was almost as credible as his article from Teen Vouge, remember that one?

I new it was a load of crap right away, just look at the source.

These Brits try their damnedest to spread any negative propaganda

If you were stuck living in the UK you would be jealous too. Even with all our faults, the USA blows Europe away, everyone knows it:)

johnny reb
10 Jun 2020  #89

The negative things we see most of the time on news broadcasts and social media are usually not the full story,

Very true AntV.
Since then several experts analyzed the video and there is a new twist to it.
And you were right AntV......

I disagree. Besides, the cop's push was very mild.

They are now claiming the old man was part of antifa and it was a set up deal.
Trump said: "I watched, he fell harder than was pushed."
He was aiming a scanner at the police equipment to possibly disable it.
Was it a would be set up ?
Trump said Gugino "could be" an anarchist "provocateur," but provided no evidence for that assertion yet.
So J.R. says, " believe nothing you hear and only half what you see !"

Miloslaw
10 Jun 2020  #90

check out Thomas Sowell and Shelby Steele

I will, thanks for the tip.


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