Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 2

@GefreiterKania
What Biden said is they wont send systems that can be used to attack Russia. They will send MLRS, limiting their range, and if used improperly Ukraine risks being cut off from US aid. Ukraine will get rockets, with limitations.

its not about weapons reaching russia.
for the past 2 days ukraine been slaughtering people in Donetsk city,with indiscriminate artillery.horrific images,people dead on the streets everywhere .
they couldn't do it before,cus theey were out of their arty range. sometimes firing tochka ballistic,
but they got 155 mm french long range howitzerss recently ,and what they used it,is for is killing civ in donetsk city
now the world have realized what are those people in kiev,and that you cant give them long range artillery to those maniacs

sounds like the Russian pattern of accusing Ukraine of what it's done....

Not today, Ivan.

twitter.com/Vasilisa_2_0/status/1531279556170104839
nsfv:
twitter.com/Vasilisa_2_0/status/1531279796247924737
twitter.com/Vasilisa_2_0/status/1531249106513014785
twitter.com/Vasilisa_2_0/status/1531249610915827712
twitter.com/Vasilisa_2_0/status/1531247644131135489
twitter.com/Vasilisa_2_0/status/1531249202881232898
nsfv:
twitter.com/Vasilisa_2_0/status/1531249454153703424
lotta videos on twitter
dunno what got into their heads,but it cost ukraine dearly. bye bye US wunderwaffe

Peddle your wares elsewhere, товарищ.

no, no simply responded. You post after post after post posts of the moral outrage. While Velund is having a laugh.


I pick on you because you are Polish and your posts on the issue are embarassing.


Millitary and economical potentials of those countries in a short term are different. It would give Russia an advantage. Aslo Germany and France can't be trusted not to make deals with Russia. The best way for all would be Russian defeat.

dont be upset princess
ukras still have maxims ,the dream is still alive
twitter.com/warchapter/status/1531342873140109314

Please stop name calling

Erm... Donetsk is a Ukrainian city. Why would they shell their own civilians? Your fabricated propaganda doesn't hold water (as usual).

"Slaughtering", "indiscriminate artillery", "horrific images", "people dead on the streets", "maniacs"... My goodness... Where were you when Russians were doing that to Mariupol?? We could use some of that moral outrage from "the other side" back then lol


I'm afraid you'll have to accept the fact that I'll be posting whatever I want and I don't care what Velund is having and what you think about it lol


If my humanity is embarrassing for you then that's a sign there's something wrong with you.

Most important thing now is to have to eat, have gas, oil, medications, home and resources. I am amazed how many people here don`t care for these things but prefer moral and pure nature.

Sure moral is also important, values and that but, without basic things no life. To some life isn`t important. Interesting.

Yes, all of that in Ukraine before the orcs appeared.

Ukraine will win. It will be a long hard road (31,000 orc losses so far and many more to come) however they will triumph.

You have a lot to learn.

For hardcore banderists russians of Donbass is not "their civilians". It is "colorads", "separs". "kacaps", etc, etc... Donbass people made banderists mad, because this was real powerful resistance. Now it is clear that there is no chances to destroy DNR/LNR, so everything they do against civilian targets is revenge to those, who has balls to effectively resist them.

8+ years, day by day... Mortars, artillery... Residental blocks on outskirts of Donetsk, Gorlovka and a number of other villages was shelled by banderists. And shelling still continues.

For those who interested - I seen a lot of T62M on railroad platforms yesterday, it was for sure latest M modification, with well known "Brezhnev's eyebrows", additional composite armor blocks on sides of turret. So, really, T62M is moved from storage bases to the west. AFAIK, there is lots of ammo for them in storage.... If "tiles" of dynamic armor and even improvised additional roof protection will be added to them at destination place - it will be quite good tank against almost anything they would met on the frontline. Even now it is comparable to T72A by protection.

Manufacture of U5-T cannon was restored few years ago for foreign customers, so there is no need to count every shell to save barrel resource - there will be replacements readily available.

@Velund


Sounds like what Russians have done to Ukraine and Ukrainians... Bucha, Irpin, Borodianka, Hostomel, Mariupol, etc. The difference is that Russians not only don't see Ukrainians as their people - they don't seem to see them as human beings.

amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/04/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-by-russian-forces-in-bucha-must-be-investigated/

"Russia's aggression against Ukraine is itself a crime under humanitarian law."

reuters.com/world/europe/amnesty-says-evidence-shows-russian-troops-committed-war-crimes-near-kyiv-2022-05-06/

"Amnesty International said on Friday there was compelling evidence that Russian troops had committed war crimes, including extrajudicial executions of civilians"

"These are not isolated incidents. These are very much part of a pattern wherever Russian forces were in control of a town or a village,"

spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/olaf-scholz-deutschland-hat-bald-groesste-konventionelle-nato-armee-in-europa-a-ab463e8f-2603-4ecd-b2be-8930d7d5fcd1

Germany is investing 100 billion euros in its armed forces. Chancellor Scholz also sees this as an investment in Europe's security. Criticism of German arms exports annoys him.

Woohooo???

Question is, what are we gonna do with it????

The special fund for the Bundeswehr since this Monday deal It means a turning point in German security policy. A massive rearmament will follow decades in which the military was cut back little by little. According to Chancellor Olaf Scholz ( SPD ), the 100 billion package is expected to significantly strengthen the German armed forces.

....

Will we truly fight the Russians? Again???? Okay....this time from the other side with better allies....but......

For some Russians, it's akin to a religious war. For the, Ukrainians are the worst kind of heretics, people who could be (or are) Russian but who have turned their backs on the faith.

There's also the idea that recruits are mostly from the most deprived parts of what is, essentially, a third world country where human life just doesn't have much value and have certainly undergone horrific physical and mental abuse in the Russian army.

Seeing the heretics living better than they do.... some of them snap.

@Bratwurst Boy
Until Russia changes their leadership, not just Putin, but their style of leadership and mass paranoia, we are bound to be in a war with Russia at some point. Russia is also bound to be manipulated by China due to the west's sanctions. With Europe cutting oil imports now, China will buy more for reserves. But when China has enough, and they stop buying, Russia will be in big trouble.

@mafketis
Russia has always been jealous of everyone else. They can not understand why they can not rise to the level of the west under their system of leadership in politics and their economy. They have been a consumer driven economy for years, buying western goods. This is all you see from wealthy Russians everywhere, buying brands and flaunting wealth because they have never had it before. The trickle down economy takes a long time to reach the bottom, and the bottom is where the soldiers being sent to die in Ukraine come from.

I read some interesting articles though about how older Russians are now worried about how many young people are being killed and leaving. They are worried about no young people working in Russia to fund the Russian retirement system. When there are no workers or not enough workers to fund their retirement, something will break quickly. Brain drain and body counts are also going to hurt the Russian economy for many years. What happens when those that currently have money start to run out. You can only hide and carry so much cash, there is only so long you can hide in Maldives or UAE. Six months from now things are going to be a lot different for a lot of people.

Interesting, South Ossetia ditches referendum on becoming part of Russia:

france24.com/en/europe/20220530-georgia-s-breakaway-region-of-south-ossetia-ditches-referendum-on-joining-russia

"In March, the prosecutor of the Hague-based International Criminal Court, Karim Khan, applied for arrest warrants for three current and former South Ossetian officials in connection with war crimes committed against ethnic Georgians."

"Last year, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Russia was responsible for human rights violations in the war's aftermath."

So nothing new here...


I remember reading a post or a comment on Twitter, I think, which stated that for Russians the Great Patriotic War is like a religious myth and that they're playing out a cosplay of that war in Ukraine... Earlier I've read that there's nothing worse in Russia than branding someone as a "Nazi" - that is completely dehumanizing this person, because "Nazis" aren't people for Russians. And dehumanizing a whole nation or a part of that nation is the surest way leading to war crimes.

And we only started hearing about it after the Russian invasion 3 months ago. Strange, isn't it?


Which is no protection at all against modern AT weapons of which Ukraine has plenty and will have even more.

@BB

Good news! The first good thing I read about Scholz in a long time.


Are you surprised? Guess what would be the first thing to happen, if they became a part of Russia - draft to the invincible Russian army, just like in the case of other Russian provinces. South Ossetia is a small region, they can't afford to send their youth to slaughter.

There is a lot of people even in Russia who don't care about what happened in Donbass and Novorossia since 2014. Everyone heard that there is some Minsk Accords, but vast majority don't know about it anything that it is somewhat related to Ukraine. And bell is not ringed when major EU politicians told that "Russia does not implemented their obligations under Minsk Accords". Just tiny fraction of people is read formal text of Minsk II accords and understand that there is NO any obligations that Russia should implement from their own side. The rest is just don't care. It is not their war, and every day bring a lot of other problems.

And even now in Donetsk there is a few people who believe that shells come from Russian territory, not from Peski and Avdyevka. Years of fierce professional propaganda works. World lived all 8 years in some isolation from reality, provided by MSM. For someone that "virtual reality" is preferred even now, at least there is no need to figure out how much lie they bought during last year.

But now you have what you have. Nobody can say for sure that "it is not their war", but some still had chance to finally choose their side.

Have you heard about Svalbard Global Seed Vault? It's in Norway and seeds from all over the word are kept there in permafrost in case grain and crops were destroyed during global disasters, wars, etc (they even have seeds from North Korea):

youtu.be/2_OEsf-1qgY

The first time it's stock was used was already in 2015 when seeds were transfered to worn-torn Syria. Thanks to this it was possible to rebuild native crops and feed Syrian people.

I hope Ukraine has sent their seeds to that vault too because their own seed bank was partly destroyed by a Russian bomb on the 14th of May and the rest of the collection is at risk:

newscientist.com/article/2321008-priceless-samples-from-ukraines-seed-bank-destroyed-in-bomb-attack/

"The collection was the 10th largest in the world and supplied seeds to breeders in many countries, including Russia.

"Almost everything turned into ashes," said Sergey Avramenko at the Plant Production Institute named after V.Ya. Yuriev"


True, I haven't thought about that...


In all honesty, we had coverage at first about an armed conflict going on in there, but with time it was getting scarcer and scarcer and finally I think media lost interest. I myself thought that some sort of stalemate happened and that it must've been fairly peaceful there since media wasn't reporting anything (or I haven't heard about it), so I lost interest too. I honestly thought people have fairly normal lives over there.

There's something I don't understand though - if there was a regular war going on in there and it was so bad, then why Russia didn't evacuate civillians from that region into Russia to keep them safe?

There was a referendum about Ukrainian independence from Russia. NATO was not involved. It was organized by the Soviet bureaucracy.
An overwhelming majority voted for independence, including 84% in Donetsk and Luhansk, and 54% in Crimea.
Russia accepted the result of that referendum and guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine.
Therefore the matter was settled both internally via plebiscite, and externally, vis-a-vis Russia.

Can you provide exact date of referendum you talk about?

If you mean the Ukrainian referendum of December 1, 1991, the direct question about Ukraine's secession from the USSR was not asked at the referendum: the confirmation of the Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine of August 24, 1991, the full text of which was given in the ballots, was put to the vote. The Act itself, which declared only its own Constitution and laws valid on the territory of Ukraine, also did not contain a direct statement about Ukraine's secession from the USSR. There was contradictions with Article 2 of the USSR Law of April 3, 1990, that established the minimum six-month period between the decision on a referendum on secession of a Union Republic from the USSR and its implementation (only about six weeks passed between the Supreme Soviet of the Ukrainian SSR decision on the referendum and its holding) and Article 3 of the same law, according to which Crimea should have their own separate referendum, as a autonomy, to choose their own way - to stay in USSR, became independent or stay in Ukraine.

Everything was done in such a hurry that no attention was paid to the laws - the Ukrainian nationalists thought that the "support of the world community" would erase all the screw-ups. It worked for a while, but began to crumble pretty quickly.

well.tili nato and nazis came toppled president and banned russian language,
if you wanna have multiethnical state,one need to learn to respect other people rights and their culture.dumb nazi though ,they can erase it and subjugate donbas,

now they learning to respect russian culture in pows camps.
see BLM in america affer killing 1 guy. compare this to what was done in odessa by ukra radicals.and people are surprised that donbas rebelled


cus western media wouldn't report it. there weeree up to 1500 a day minsk violation incidents by ukra criminals.shelling shootings ect.
there was one instance ,where even zelensky got angry at azov thugs . he said to them to stop it and pull weapons out of donbas.

but they wouldn't listen,so he grab hes bodyguards and went to donbas to confront them. almost got into fist fight with commander.
gotta respect zelensky back then in 2019. but now hes just a puppet and hostage of radical power forces in ukra.he cant do shaite. too weak

@Velund, I think the word "Independence" in that "Act of Declaration of Independence of Ukraine" is pretty straightforward (independence=secession from the USSR).

britannica.com/place/Ukraine/Independent-Ukraine

"The population of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly for independence in the referendum of December 1, 1991. (About 84 percent of eligible voters turned out for the referendum, and about 90 percent of them endorsed independence.)"

"Ukraine also had withstood political pressure from Moscow to reconsider its course toward independence and enter into a restructured Soviet Union."


You don't have to be a "nationalist" in order to want to live in an independent country. Why are you demonizing and vilifying Ukrainians so much for them wanting to have their own country? Even back then?


I've seen a video of that. They were arguing, but there was no threat of a fist fight lol :) Judging by the comments to that video Ukrainians didn't have a good opinion of Zelensky's behaviour back then. They were writing in the comments that now he's doing the right thing - putting up a fight against Russia, that he improved. So, he isn't a "puppet", but a president who fulfills the will of his people - fighting for the independence of the country.


Just like they cease to report about other prolonged armed conflicts (or the coverage becomes sparse). I see you guys are looking for some conspiracy theories here, but that's the sad truth about media and people in general - they have a short attention span. And it's not only about wars, but about criminal cases too, for example. Someone gets arrested, but if the court case lasts two or three years - people forget.

Good article from American defense website, War on the Rocks, titled "Would We Do Better? Hubris and Validation in Ukraine".

On the example of the one failed crossing of the Seversky Donets River, the author tries to establish whether the failed attempt was due to uniquely Russian weaknesses, or if this is something even American forces would struggle with.

warontherocks.com/2022/05/would-we-do-better-hubris-and-validation-in-ukraine/

Worth a read. Bottom line - the failures have less to do with Russian ineptitude and more to do with the unique nature of this conflict. Good reading for Poles.

Anyone claiming that Ukrainians had no right to oust Yanukovych after such break of electoral social contract is surely malicious or crazy. Or both.
Yanukovich ran and was elected on a pro-EU campaign. He asked for a bribe, and was rejected. He then decided to be anti-EU, and the people who elected him on his pro-EU campaign decided to replace him. Zero need to have NATO or coups or whatever in this narrative. Just a politician doing the opposite of what he said he'd do, and an angry populace telling him to fu*ck off.


What kind of punishment do they get if someone catches them speaking Russian in public?
Because I am pretty sure there isn't a ban on speaking Russian and you just made that up.

zelensky run and was elected on pro peaceful solution to donbas problem. yet he failed to implement minsk accords
by the way, you were born yesterday? all politicians brake to some extand promises they make on election day. all of them.
if such person fail social contract you remove him in next election ,not by killing police officers in violent rebellion.
in 2014 ukraine was 2 years away from election. there was no need for removing yanukowicz.
people protested on maydan,its their right,and protest wass peaceful at beginning
but at some point radicals spotted opportunity to grab power. they had only 5% support in ukraine.
there was their only chance to acquire power, hence suddenly maydan turn violent.and they succeeded
Olivier stone movie was good if you want to watch ,called ukraine on fire? or something like that

"The hapless Russians are flailing in Ukraine. Their poorly prepared, unprofessional soldiers are incapable of modern combined arms warfare. Even if Russian soldiers were trained and ready, the incompetent Russian officer corps - full of corrupt yes-men - is incapable of employing them effectively."

Yes, the first paragraph sums it up rather well. No point reading the whole thing. ;)


Oh, don't worry - we are observing carefully and drawing valuable conclusions (on many levels).

Hmm. Wonder if you are trolling? This paragraph is one, where the author rehashes the "popular narrative".