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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 2



PolAmKrakow
11 May 2022  #1,651

@Paulina
Agreed, but in Krakow you can see and hear the frustration in Poles and Ukraine people alike when it comes to communication and over crowding. Krakow streets in April were as crowded as they are in the height of tourism season in June to September. I can not imagine how crowded it is going to be once we get to June and the actual tourists come. My own observations are that Ukraine people for the most part are polite, but there is a portion that are not trying to assimilate into Polish society, and there are instances of trouble, with I suspect more to come.

Paulina
11 May 2022  #1,652

@PolAmKrakow, that's understandable. A refugee crisis isn't called a "crisis" for no reason. On a Polish-Ukrainian help group I've already seen comments from both Poles and Ukrainians saying that big cities are full already and people should be directed to smaller cities, towns and villages. But the Polish government isn't coordinating this. To be honest, I'm not sure if the government is coordinating anything.

amiga500
11 May 2022  #1,653

and there are instances of trouble, with I suspect more to come.

I thought ukranian men were not allowed to leave , and in fact there are big skill shortages, as many men went back to fight? How are women and children causing trouble?

HOWEVER i think the whole refugee convention needs to be reworked, and poland should be at the forefront. If the Ukranian mafia is starting to set up shop, and any thugs are commiting trouble, their refugee status should be revoked and shipped back to lviv/kiev to let the ukranians deal with their own scum.

I'm not sure if the government is coordinating anything.

Maybe if the EU had given us money to support the refugeesl, like the billions they gave the dictator edrogan, not to mention the money for KPO that we are owed, the government would be doing more.

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1,654

But what can you expect from a terrorist nazi state?

So any state that kills and destroys is a terrorist nazi state?
I just want to make sure your definition will not change in the next 10 minutes.

A refugee crisis isn't called a "crisis" for no reason.

And they are not going back. Enjoy the rape of Poland.

People in Poland are slowly starting to have enough of new people coming.

So the euphoria is over? I like you cojest more and more...

Cojestdocholery
11 May 2022  #1,655

you.

Me? I was looking ahead and think ahead as those issues are not so easy to manage. Hyper optimistic attitude doesn't really help much.

If you stop being such overbreaing know it all with your I'm all right and your high moral ground and I'm better than you BS, you would know better.

There are a lot of BS spread about Ukrianians and some could be a real issues. Your - black or white - choose one - doesn't help!

I thought ukranian men were not allowed to leave ,

If they have three kids they can leave. Aslo some claim that there is corruption and some men slip over. I don't know if that the truth, could be.

people should be directed

People don't want to go there in many cases. We should set refugees camps as well for the newcamers and those who took over hotels.

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1,656

We should set refugees camps

...and make their life barely tolerable to keep that desire to go back home percolating. They should not be taught Polish and allowed to marry Poles.

PolAmKrakow
11 May 2022  #1,657

@amiga500
Wealthy families left before the borders were closed to men. That said, there aren't a whole lot of men, but the ones who are here have been somewhat rude when communicating. While everyone is frustrated with the language barrier, men and women alike have been loud in some situations I have witnessed.

Dirk diggler
11 May 2022  #1,658

As I predicted... 3 million people on top of the 2-3 million Ukranians already in Poland is a big demographic change for a country of some 40 million people... This is not going to end well. These people need to go back but won't because the quality of life, wages, etc. is much better in Poland than Ukraine. How many El Salvadorans, Vietnamese, etc. moved back home after coming to the US as refugees? How many arabs and africans left France, Germany, Sweden, etc. moved back home? Little to none and that's not going to change, they're only going to keep multiplying, demand more and more rights and representation, and as a result the natives are slowly losing control of their own country.

Poland really should've thought this through or redistributed them to Germany or whatever. This is when a quota system would've helped Poland. They could've said we took in 100k 200k whatever and washed their hands of it - the rest can go to other EU states.

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1,659

@PolAmKrakow

I don't know if you're seeing this in Poland, but one reason for frustration with the refugees arriving in Moldova is how wealthy many of them seem to be in comparison to the locals. I've seen a few videos of parking lots filled with Range Rovers, G-Wagens, Cayennes, Teslas with Ukrainian plates. Then a few videos of the frustrated locals, who don't understand why these people need help. It doesn't help also that Ukrainians exhibit a big brother attitude to Moldovans and have been acting like they own the place.

AntV
11 May 2022  #1,660

The money goes to Ukraine the country.

That happens to be a country steeped in corruption. I think it foolish to believe that many of those dollars won't find their way into the pockets of a few well positioned Ukrainian kleptocrats. I'm all for arming the Ukes, but not so keen on shoveling hard cash dollars into the pipeline of Ukrainian corruption.

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1,661

This is not going to end well. These people need to go back

They do but they won't. Welcome to Hell of your own creation, Poles.

That happens to be a country steeped in corruption.

Not true. Ukraine is a "democracy" worth dying for. Just ask the wives of those who left "America" and did.

Poland really should've thought this through

That is hard when one is a compulsive poet.

cms neuf
11 May 2022  #1,662

Dirk how can you use the word "we" to discuss how us Poles can deal with refugees. You are sat in your Chicago bedroom egging on the invaders - we are here extending the hand of friendship to our neighbors, just as the Bible says we should

mafketis
11 May 2022  #1,663

As I predicted...

You predicted nothing besides maybe a quick and easy Russian victory. You have no direct contact with Poland and simply larp as a Putinite Collaborator...

Of course there are some tensions. That's not remarkable. What's remarkable is how low they are.

Putin groupies are eager to stir up trouble where there's not really very much.

foolish to believe that many of those dollars won't find their way into the pockets

That was a feint! And you fell for it! Money's not being sent, but weapons are. US jobs will be created a win-win situation.

Ukraine has been corrupt but is slow trying to work itself out of that. Things like an anti-oligarch law, for example. Russians still wallow in corruption and theft like pigs in slop.

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1,664

we are here extending the hand of friendship to our neighbors,

Such acts require two body parts. The hand to invite them and the leg to kick them out when they stay too long. Plus the brain to decide when.

You predicted nothing besides maybe a quick and easy Russian victory.

Such things do not need to be predicted. They are guaranteed and he gave you the examples.

Cojestdocholery
11 May 2022  #1,665

but won't because

I'm not sure they will not go back. That is your assumption, some of them will stay yes. The other issue here is a fact that Polish government wants them here, they want them to stay for ever. maybe not all but a million or there about.

What you say here is not an issue. Is not as IF nobody knows that could be the case but the fact that governmet in Poland is actually counting on that to happen. Hence their generous benefits for the refugees.

Poland really should've thought this through or redistributed them to Germany or whatever.

The other issue you don't seem to be awere off, is the fact that Germany and France sabotage Polish government, they refuse to help finacially, they won't go out of their way to help Poland, quite the opposite.

Also Polish government stands on the principle that no refugee is going to be relocated against their will.
So there is it!

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1,666

that no refugee is going to be relocated against their will.

When a war is over and the refugees refuse to leave they are no longer refugees but trespassers.

PolAmKrakow
11 May 2022  #1,667

@Bobko
Krakow is a wealthy city by any standard. A nice apartment within walking distance of Rynek is going to cost you 250K USD and up, really nice and you are in the 500K neighborhood. Typical wealthy Ukraine people would be upper middle class here. Having been to the wealthiest areas of Kiev, Lviv and Odessa, only the supper wealthy would be considered wealthy here. Those people though are not the ones having issues that I can see. It is the ones who came with nothing who have issues. The wealthy have blended in and keep quiet, I have two families on my block who just go about their business and cause no issues. A few minutes walk to Galleria Kazimierz and you have the opposite.

@Novichok
You are right, most will not go back. For multiple reasons. First, most of their homes are gone and Ukraine will take three years to rebuild or more. Second, many will during that time meet and marry a Pole in order to stay here and not be forced to change their lives again. Third, some will have nothing to go back to at all.

All that said, Russia created all the problems. Putin created them. He needs to be killed and then the world can deal with a new leader who will likely be a lot more reasonable. There is no place in the world for him or people like him any more.

Atch
11 May 2022  #1,668

somewhat rude

men and women alike have been loud in some situations I have witnessed.

Ukrainians, like everyone, are a mixed bag but Poles of all socio-economic groups are a lot more restrained than Ukrainians. There is a kind of formality in Polish society that is more Germanic than Slavic.

When a war is over and the refugees refuse to leave

More hypothetical situations from you. The war is not over and refugees are not refusing to leave.

GefreiterKania
11 May 2022  #1,669

Ka-52 Alligator shot down by Polish Piorun missile...

wydarzenia.interia.pl/raporty/raport-ukraina-rosja/aktualnosci/news-ukraincy-zestrzelili-rosyjski-ka-52-posluzyla-im-do-tego-pol,nId,6017485

...while Ukrainian counteroffensive in Kharkiv area almost reached the russian border.

Dirk diggler
11 May 2022  #1,670

Dirk how can you use the word "we" to discuss how us Poles can deal with refugees

Because I am a Polish citizen, born and raised, and a Polish tax payer. I'd much rather my taxes get spent on building better roads around Wroclaw and Oborniki Slaskie than on ukrop refugees. Or funding the 500 plus program so Poland's population of natives grows. So yes, I have just as much stake as a foreign expat living in my motherland, arguably more so because it is my motherland, my place of birth, where I learned my first language, and where my family is from and lives in.

You are sat in your Chicago bedroom egging on the invaders

I'm not egging on anyone. Like I said before, I don't care who wins or loses in this conflict. Both people are the historic enemies of Poles. While other Poles may forget about Galicia and Wolyn massacres, I won't. Ukranians are unpredictably violent, two faced scum imo. These are people who have mastered the art of switching sides and backstabbing over the course of some 400 years. They'd ally with Poland when threatened, then ally with Russia/Germany/Austria-Hungary/etc. to kick Poland while she's down. They don't belong in Polish polite society. I'd much rather have them and the Russians waste each other. Poland has enough ukrops serving coffee and driving taxis as it is.

You predicted nothing besides maybe a quick and easy Russian victory.

Actually, I said that this will be a long drawn out conflict. I did say that Ukraine is on the losing end, despite all the Russian losses it's nonetheless Ukraine who is in a far weaker spot. No one wants to talk about Ukranian losses which relative to the size of their armed forces is much greater than the Russians.

Russians are gradually conquering one area after the other. Yes, it's taking longer than expecter. Now Mariupol is theirs. Odessa is next - they're already bombing it to get the civilians to start fleeing.

I'm not sure they will not go back. That is your assumption, some of them will stay yes.

Most will stay, just as always happens in such scenarios when poorer people move to a wealthier country. At best, they may go back on vacation to visit their mother country and build a vacation house.

they won't go out of their way to help Poland, quite the opposite.

Of course. That's why Poland should've just hired buses and dropped them a couple meters past the Polish-German border and told them to claim asylum. Afterall, if millions of arabs and africans can cross dozens of borders to claim asylum in their desired welfare haven why can't they? Unless of course it's because they're not dark skinned enough and thus wouldn't contribute to their multi kulti fetish.

PolAmKrakow
11 May 2022  #1,671

And now we have the beginning of what will be many wydarzenia.interia.pl/raporty/raport-ukraina-rosja/aktualnosci/news-pierwszy-rosyjski-zolnierz-stanie-przed-sadem-za-zabicie-cyw,nId,6017443

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1,672

A nice apartment within walking distance of Rynek is 250K USD and up, really nice and 500K neighborhood.

That's more or less Kiev center city pricing if you're talking about a 2-3 bedroom apartment. This is now, after two back to back wars. Kharkov and Odessa have comparable rates. Lviv is slightly less affluent. Before the war started in 2013, prices in Kiev were often upwards of a million plus for a three bedroom. I don't think this is a statement on the incredible wealth of Ukrainians, but more a product of structural distortions in their real estate market. It's not normal to have Manhattan prices in a country with less than $10K per capita income. Still, the point I wanted to make is that probably a "wealthy Ukrainian = wealthy Pole".

The wealthy refugees in Moldova, I have seen videos of, are obviously Odessites.

mafketis
11 May 2022  #1,673

I don't care who wins or loses in this conflict

You should. Russia has said clearly that Poland is on its list. It would be better to not wait for them to get around to invading.... an ounce of prevention....

Poles of all socio-economic groups are a lot more restrained than Ukrainians

True. Ukrainians are generally louder and more boisterous than Poles (or Russians for that matter). That said the underlying cultures of both groups (Poles and Ukrainians) are closer to each other than either is to Russians with their weird impassivity and acceptance of repression.

2004 and 2013-14 were a bit like the Solidarity period and 1989 in Poland... societies trying to exit the dysfunctional and awful Russian sphere....

AntV
11 May 2022  #1,674

Money's not being sent, but weapons are

14 Billion is earmarked for some kind of economic fund to keep the government running-kleptocrats would never see that as an opportunity, would they?. Only 6 billion goes toward new weaponry and about the same is going toward replenishing (whatever that means) american systems already in uke.

Russian corruption doesn't make Ukrainian corruption any less real and problematic.

Dirk diggler
11 May 2022  #1,675

Ukraine has been corrupt but is slow trying to work itself out of that. Things like an anti-oligarch law,

ROFL!!!! Oh man that literally just made me laugh out loud.... hahaha ukraine trying to work out corruption!!!

Ukraine is one big corrupt ********. That whole region is the armpit of Europe. Ever since Ukraine gained independence it's been 30 years of the pro-Europeans vs pro-Russians taking turns draining coffers, embezzling government funds, nepotism and of course jailing or murdering opposition they don't like.

Oh but because now the pro-Russia camp is going to be out so at least all the graft and nepotism will be solely for the pro-EU ukrop jews like judensky and their friends/shabbos goys.. great...

Russia has said clearly that Poland is on its list.

It's a whole lot of bluster because Poland is foolishly helping their historic ukrop enemies whcih the Russians obviously don't like. But even Putin knows attacking a NATO country would be foolish.

Velund
11 May 2022  #1,676

Here is a post of one smart woman from Ukraine (Rich should know who she is)... I make a translation and removed title, as it a bit non-politically correct. ;)

Once again there is disturbing news from Britain, where another crisis has erupted. This time it's the local farmers (economist.com/graphic-detail/2022/05/05/the-war-in-ukraine-has-caused-a-labour-crunch-on-britains-farms) who are sounding the alarm: The crops are ripe, but there aren't enough workers to harvest them. "Help! HELP!", they shout to their government, strawberries and cream, a favorite delicacy of British sirs, risk disappearing from the shelves of British stores, and along with them the local asparagus, tomatoes, apples, lettuce, radishes, cabbage and other fruits and vegetables are going to wave goodbye to the British. 😱

We have often heard stories from people who have visited Western countries that food there costs mere pennies on the background of more or less good salaries. But few have thought about why such a distortion occurs. After all, no matter how mechanized agriculture is, but to pick asparagus and tomatoes or prune fruit trees can only be done by hard manual labor and nothing else. The secret is simple: for a long time, Western countries invited various natives for this work, who were willing to work on their plantations for a nickel, without claiming any social benefits because of ruined health or pension.

This perfect scheme worked right up to the beginning of the coronavirus madness with all the lockdowns and quarantines. But then the Germans, Brits, Finns and other neo-planners managed to get their governments to give them quotas to bring natives into their plantations, and the situation was saved. It's no different now, when the west decided to clash with Russia on the territory of Ukraine, already colonized by them, which was the main supplier of slaves for the shittiest jobs with penny wages!

Suddenly it turned out that the men of conscription age under 60 years old can no longer go out as laborers to work at construction sites, picking strawberries and other menial jobs. Now they all have to sit at home, waiting for Ukroreich to call them to defend the life of the Z'elite. Well, the women can't do all the work. And to leave a man at home alone to take care of children, when at any moment he can be dragged away to the front, is a little bit risky. That is why the flow of working Ukrainians to Europe has decreased considerably. But Ukrainian laborers accounted for 67% of all those imported for the needs of British non-plantators! But the most surprising thing is that the second place with 8% of the supply of laborers was occupied by Russia. Could it be that they don't have enough work at home either?

But now there are about 5 million citizens of Ukraine in the EU, mostly women with children, who also can not really work for 12-14 hours in the fields, as there is no one to leave small children. And another contingent that has poured into the EU en masse are potheads who go to rallies and suffer all sorts of bullshit from idleness, burdened by excess energy. But the problem is that pot-headed lunatics are not meant for work. They are absolute ballast for society, incapable of bringing any social benefit. By the way, the West made them that way when they were breeding them to take over and colonize Ukraine.

In general, it is a dead end. No matter how you look at it, Europeans will probably have to start paying a real price for food - and many of them will not like it at all. 😈

mafketis
11 May 2022  #1,677

Ukrainian counteroffensive in Kharkiv area almost reached the russian border

It's a feint! (as Russian shills label every Russian setback....)

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1,678

hahaha ukraine trying to work out corruption!!!

...and there are suckers who actually believe this crap. BTW, in your next post, could you mention Bidens?

Stick to the topic, I won't tell you again

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1,679

@AntV

Ukrainian corruption makes Russia look like Switzerland. Few people outside the ex-USSR can appreciate this, but it is true. Even Saakashvilli, reformer wunderkind, was defeated by the entrenched Ukrainian system.

Here's some illustrative stats. Russia has an economy roughly ten times the size of Ukraine's, but for the longest time the wealthiest person in the CIS was Rinat Akhmetov, a Ukrainian. His company controls more than 25% of GDP, and this is one man. Inside their state corporations, private interests have taken over executive boards, and engage in straight up theft of state property like draining technical oil from a pipeline (this makes the pipeline unusable, since there should always be some amount of liquid inside to make transport possible). The son in law of former President Kuchma is the second richest man, controlling banks, steel plants, television channels. The older son of ousted President Yanukovych basically made every significant business transaction in the country go through him. Their ex PM Tymoshenko became a billionaire during her tenure as head of state gas trading company.

This kind of Kyrgyz/Uzbek level of corruption is still shocking to Russians. After all, it's hard to imagine Putin appointing his son-in-law as head of judiciary or customs collection. Broadly speaking - I think there are three types of corruption. "Forced" - where through imperfections of local legal framework it is simply necessary to grease the gears to make the machine work. "Dishonest Competition" - you leverage your deeper connections in government to make life for competing companies difficult, not quite as victimless as the first but still kosher. "Rape of the State" - worst form of corruption done at the expense of the people, through straight theft of budget funds. This last form of corruption is much more widespread in Ukraine than in Russia, where it is already on gigantic scales.

mafketis
11 May 2022  #1,680

made me laugh out loud.... hahaha

The dishonest find attempts at reform to be ludicrous....


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