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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 2



amiga500
11 May 2022  #1681

are the historic enemies of Poles

Historically we have been part of the same commonwealth, or before that friends a lot more time than historical enemies. Khemtelsky was the start of the trouble by turning to russia for help against poland and look how dearly the ukranians have paid for that since then. It is time to right historical wrongs and polish ukranian frienship to blossom again

and backstabbing over the course of some 400 years.

It works both ways, for instance Poland betrayed the Ukrainians when poland signed the peace treaty ending the polish-soviet war in 1921

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1682

More hypothetical situations from you.

"When a war is over..." is not hypo. All wars end. Local crime and global warming - the two things now as a basis to claim refugee status here - are not wars.

make Ukrainian corruption

There is no corruption in Ukraine. Ukraine is a democracy worth dying for.

mafketis
11 May 2022  #1683

What's a soldier's life worth in Russia?

50-70 dollars on the black market and a pair of boots....

twitter.com/LuisF0/status/1524321989300736001

And lots are dead an uncollected and families are told they're AWOL (anything to not give away those precious boots too easily).

What a degraded and degrading culture!

Atch
11 May 2022  #1684

Ukraine is a democracy worth dying for.

Ukraine is not a full/true democracy. Neither is the USA. There are only five full democracies even in the EU. But Ukraine had a chance to reform itself, was actively trying to reform itself - and Putin didn't like that one bit.

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1685

There are only five full democracies even in the EU.

How would you know if you live in "not a full/true" democracy vs "full" democracy?

Atch
11 May 2022  #1686

I no longer live in one and believe me, I can see the difference.

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1687

Ukraine had a chance to reform itself, was actively trying to reform itself - and Putin didn't like that one bit.

Hahahahahahahaha. Yep, that's what Putin didn't like. Not the fact that Ukraine depopulated and deindustrialized itself. Not that an economy which was designed from the ground up to be integrated with Russia's was getting destroyed through the greed and dementedness of local leaders.

Cojestdocholery
11 May 2022  #1688

ROFL!!!!

I are out of touch, prejudiced and full of malice. Chicago doesn't do you any good.
I noticed that some people became more extreme in their views in America.
Ukrainie winning the war are good for Poland. Help refugees frleleing from war is not a bad thing to do.
Zełenski is an upstanding dude.
Jew or not who cares? what counts are views and values of a person.
I would rather have Jan Śpiewak ( a Jew by your standard) as Warsaw major than Trzaskowski (not a Jew).

Novichok
11 May 2022  #1689

I can see the difference.

What is it?

Not the fact that Ukraine depopulated and deindustrialized itself.

Nope. None of this matters to Putin. Only how Ukrainians vote and feel.

Crnogorac3
11 May 2022  #1690

Hamericans admit that they and their advisers have been for 8 years training and arming Ukraine for this war.

t.me/denazi_UA/9508

Dirk diggler
11 May 2022  #1691

The dishonest find attempts at reform to be ludicrous....

No, I just can smell bullshit from a mile away and can tell when people are being dishonest. Nothing is going to change in Ukraine. It's going to just as corrupt in 10, 20 years as it is today. Only difference is that it'll be localized amongst one group, kind of like in Russia, as now there will only be the pro-EU, US backed that get access to the leves are power and thus all the graft, nepotism, and access to state coffers that comes with it.

Khemtelsky

And yet they still honor him to this day, naming streets after him and polishing his statues... not in the eastern parts either..

"Rape of the State"

That's the best way to describe the state of the situation Ukraine...

In Russia there's undoubtedly corruption, but it's a different type that prevails. It's more of greasing the wheels, government giving out contracts to preferred companies, inflating costs (i.e. Sochi Winter Olympics), etc. But state up plundering government coffers, not quite like in Ukraine. In Chechnya yeah, because that's the only way to really keep the peace there.

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1692

@Novichok

I'm beginning to realize that I misunderstood something about this conflict. People on the outside seem to really believe some bizarro narrative of a reformist and democratic Ukraine that's not allowed to break free of Russia's torture dungeon.

Nobody in Russia or Ukraine really thinks this. For one, it's because they know Russia has long since overtaken them in reforms (Look at "Ease of Doing Business" rankings, and Russia's amazing progress in implementing electronic government). Second, because Ukrainian democracy, bought and paid for by Kolomoisky and Akhmetov, is an even bigger joke than Russian democracy.

The main narrative/debate is around the concept of "Russkiy Mir", the commonality of the two people's origins, the protection of language and culture, and a desire to reintegrate economically. This is what Russians want, and what Ukrainians resist. Not trying to reform, and being prevented from doing so by some atavistic Russia.

Crnogorac3
11 May 2022  #1693

t.me/anna_news/31677

Kharkov region, the video of an Iskander hitting the building where AFU is.

twitter.com/2022Donetsk1/status/1524372008305401856

How it shook them...

PolAmKrakow
11 May 2022  #1694

Poland is crazy corrupt as well. Personally I dont GAF about the corruption if it is a matter of greasing palms to speed up processes that otherwise take forever. It still happens in US as well.

The issue is, that Russia has no business or right to do anything or demand anything of Ukraine. Thats it, simple. Get TFO and let Ukraine be Ukraine. If Russians want to be Russian, then they should move to Russia. Pretty Fing simple. The problem is no one wants to go to Russia because its a toilet of crime and corruption. If Russia wants to save Russian speaking people then go get them and move them to Russia otherwise get the FO.

AntV
11 May 2022  #1695

Russkiy Mir". This is what Russians want, and what Ukrainians resist.

Russia has no business or right to do anything or demand anything of Ukraine

Pretty much sums it up.

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1696

The issue is, that Russia has no business or right to do anything or demand anything of Ukraine. Thats it, simple.

Thank you, finally some clarity. This is much easier to understand than us trying to prevent Ukraine from reforming, or some grotesque desire to make them even more corrupt.

I can't even understand how people think this logic operates. Is it like this: "Ukraine is reforming its judiciary, and transitioning to lifetime tenure for judges instead of appointment by the executive. Oh no! This will reduce our Russian ability to use dirty money to shape Ukraine's politics! Quick - we need to drag them back down into the dirt."? Why don't Russians just copy their reforms and implement them quicker (which we have done), instead of getting butthurt and dragging Ukraine back? Reforms are difficult for me to understand as a zero sum game.

Back to your message PAK. Despite you being rude as hell to me at all times, I appreciate what you wrote because it actually makes sense. Simple and to the point, without trying to drag in ten other subjects.

Velund
11 May 2022  #1697

If Russians want to be Russian, then they should move to Russia. Pretty Fing simple.

Crimea done exactly that. Wave farewell to Ukraine, where was by mistake (by Kruschev), and returned to Russia. Now is turn of those, who become in Ukraine by Lenin mistake. Mistakes of Tzars is waiting their turn.

I think, those who wish to be Completely Independent Ukrainians will need to decide what ukraine really is - a land of Cossacks that entered Russian Empire on the East or land seceded from Austro-Hungary in the West in the past. Languages is quite different ("Literature" Ukrainian based on Sumy region "language standard" or heavily contaminated by polonisms galician dialect hardly understandable by many people on the East), and there is "cossack blood" mentioned in the anthem, but there never been any local cossacks in Galicia. And even now mans from Galicia is yelling "this is not our war" once Zelensky try to send "territorial defence" units from Western Ukraine to Donbass front line. Who is Ukrainian really then?

Korvinus
11 May 2022  #1698

Hamericans admit that they and their advisers have been for 8 years training and arming Ukraine for this war.

Don't rob Putin of his agency. Angry dwarf gave the order to attack, nobody pushed him to do it.

Atch
11 May 2022  #1699

what Ukrainians resist.

What Ukrainians resist is Russian interference in their affairs - and rightly so. The common origins you talk about, the language and culture etc is a bit like saying that Ireland has the right to rule Scotland because Scotland was founded by Irish settlers and the two cultures have much in common. Their Gaelic language is a derivative of ours, their pipes are derived from ours, their Gaelic game Shinty is a derivative of Irish hurling. Does Ireland have the right to rule Scotland or decide what's better for them?

What is it?

One huge difference and one of the reasons that Ireland is a true democracy (yes, it is one of the few in the world) is that the constitution of Ireland can't be changed without consulting the people. In Poland the government can do what they like with the constitution and alter it on a whim.

I think, those who wish to be Completely Independent Ukrainians

Ukraine is completely independent.

AntV
11 May 2022  #1700

@Bobko

The willingness of the west to suspend its suspicions of Uke corruption is worrisome to me. Strategically, it's important to show a unified front of support for Ukraine and to back it up with reasonable military aid and provide humanitarian aid to the people of Uke, but the clamoring in about membership into western alliances and handing over cash to Uke government is too much for me.

Interesting thoughts on the types of corruption. The second one is a problem throughout the west: crony capitalism has haunted the US for decades.

Velund
11 May 2022  #1701

Ukraine is completely independent.

From what?

Atch
11 May 2022  #1702

Well, if you don't understand what an independent country is, and need to have that term defined for you .......speaks volumes about Russians.

mafketis
11 May 2022  #1703

a desire to reintegrate economically. This is what Russians want, and what Ukrainians resist

If that's what Russians want then why are they blowing up so much stuff?

And it takes two to "reintegrate" if Ukrainians don't want to be part of "Rossijski mir" then that decision is theirs, and not the tsar's.

state up plundering government coffers, not quite like in Ukraine

you do realize that one reason the Russian army is so pitiful is that lots of money meant for modernization went into building new super yachts, don't you?

Funny Russian "patriotism"....

twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1524426983936983043

Velund
11 May 2022  #1704

if you don't understand what an independent country is

It is normally understood that a sovereign state is independent. Ukraine have zero sovereignity now. So, probably you mean something else under "independent". Maybe from common sense?

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1705

@mafketis

... and still, Russian corruption is orders of magnitude smaller than Ukrainian. One way to know this, is looking at what companies the countries have managed to attract. IKEA has a famous policy of not facilitating graft, and true enough, it had some difficulties with Russian municipal authorities early on and threatened to leave, but then the situation was resolved. Ukraine meanwhile, could not convince IKEA to open in all thirty years.

Ukraine had a thriving automobile sector in 1980s, and now produces less than 3K cars a year, as recently as early 2000s it was 400K. Russia meanwhile has attracted every single automobile manufacturer to open plants in Russia, and produces in excess of 2M cars a year. This includes Volkswagen, Daimler, Ford, Renault, Mitsubishi, etc. Right before the war, Renault had plans to export cars from Russia to Europe.

Ukraine had one of the newest power generation networks in the USSR. In thirty years, it did not manage to attract a single foreign investor into its nuclear plants, coal stations, dams, etc. As a result there is a catastrophic level of underinvestment, and a good chance of overall collapse. Russia, meanwhile, has privatized its entire power generation sector, with the plants now belonging to companies like E.On, Fortum, Uniper, and them investing billions into refurbishing them.

Bottom line: The people called Ukrainians have turned out to be poor custodians of the country called Ukraine.

Korvinus
11 May 2022  #1706

Ukraine have zero sovereignity now.

Lets suppose that UA enters in NATO, how NATO can force UA to follow his demands?

mafketis
11 May 2022  #1707

Young Russian men share their thoughts on mobilization.... (admittedly from a hipster neighborhood, but....)

youtube.com/watch?v=WnKMLM7Hvqc

Russian corruption is orders of magnitude smaller than Ukrainian

Then why were median incomes in Kyiv starting to approach those of Moscow? Why were living standards in the countryside so much higher than in Russia?

Of course corruption was (and remains) a problem in Ukraine and really tackling corruption takes decades rather than months.

Korvinus
11 May 2022  #1708

Russian corruption is orders of magnitude smaller than Ukrainian

heh

Bobko
11 May 2022  #1709

@Korvinus

Keep laughing. I gave you facts.

Korvinus
11 May 2022  #1710

I'll give one fact. Putin's Palace :-D


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