Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 7

Amen, brother. When it does, I think it is imperative that they be allowed to join the EU, if not NATO. With their incredible sacrifice in the name of European values and ideals, they have proven that they are more than worthy of joining the European family of nations.

To cement this success, it may be necessary to provide an infusion of capital that parallels in scale the wealth transfer that occurred from West Germany to East Germany post reunification, or the transfers from Brussels to Poland. Only by raising Ukrainian standards of living closer to the European average, can we hope to preserve the strength of their burgeoning democratic institutions and market-economy orientation.

Bobko, please don't do this. Not funny...

As far as PAK and CK, in my opinion, you both are right.

The US is Thelma and Louise...speeding toward the cliff. As rich as the US is, it can carry only so much debt. Then it's Zimbabwe.

The math is very simple. DC collects 3.2 trillion in taxes. It spends 1 trillion on defense. Soon the debt with be 40 trillion. At 5%, the interest on the debt will be 2 trillion. That leaves 0 to run the country. Not good. End of America.

In 19 years of EU membership Poland received about 236 billion euro and paid over 78 billion euro into the common budget. That gives a net profit of 157 billion euro or 8.26bn euro/year...

money.pl/pieniadze/19-lat-temu-polska-weszla-do-ue-oto-bilans-czlonkostwa-6892963104406080a.html

... 8.26bn is a lot of money but it is also about 1.2% of Poland's current GDP of about 643bn euro, and about 3.5% of our 2004 GDP.

We can therefore definitely say that the money from Brussels helped Poland develop but sometimes people make it sound as if Poland's success was an effect of money transfer from Brussels only. It wasn't. Poland is a success story mainly because of Polish hard-work and resourcefullness.

In the period from 1989 to 2018, Poland's GDP increased by 826.96% and it was the best result in Europe. The closest nation economically/culturally to Poland - the Czechs - enjoyed the growth of "only" 549.47% in the same period despite receiving more EU funds per capita.

Besides, Polish GDP grew by about 350% in the period of 1989 - 2003, so even before we joined the EU.

Ukraine, which in 1989 had 23% higher GDP than Poland, was surprised to see Poland's GDP to be more than 4 times larger than theirs in 2003 (still before we joined the EU).

The EU membership gave Poland something more than direct money transfers; it was access to the huge common market for our companies and individual citizens as well as solid legal/economic regulations which made our system compatible with European standards and helped to decrease corruption. In the long run that, plus hard work, decided the Polish success.

I think Ukrainians would be well advised to take all that into account: legal and economic reforms are more important than direct money transfers. If you are not ready to reform your system and root out corruption, the EU membership won't give you much. I am strangely certain that 8.26bn euro/year which Poland received from the EU would just disappear inside the current Ukrainian system without significantly increasing the standard of living of an average Ukrainian.

Selensky seems to see that problem too as he kicked out defense minister Reznikov (during a war no less)....as it looks now because of corruption!

Who knows, the counter offensive might start to be successful now....

lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/09/04/the-fall-of-a-minister-and-an-oligarch-in-ukraine_6122898_4.html

The fall of a minister and an oligarch in Ukraine

Volodymyr Zelensky dismissed his defense minister Oleksii Reznikov on Sunday after a series of corruption scandals. On Saturday, Ihor Kolomoisky, who launched the current president's political career, was taken into custody on charges of fraud and money laundering.

....but seriously....corruption during an invasion.....trying to get rich(er) as your people fight for their lives and die for your country....that's hard stuff!

Hard stuff indeed. Eastern Slavs are a bit different from Western Slavs in this regard. When we still lived in our big common camp they liked to skip financial integrity classes and went to relax in a banya or play preferans and durak instead. ;)

I like collecting ironies...Here is the Mother of All Ironies...Pay attention now...

Ukrainian refugees who left for Russia - the country that is trying to kill as many of them as possible - are safer than those who elected to hide in Poland - the country that loves Ukrainians!!!!!

BTW, NYT calls Ukrainians in Russia "migrants". I guess Western presstitutes can't accept that Russia can actually provide refuge and safety. Once in Russia, it's Katyn or Gulag.

youtu.be/RNuYccOOduA

"They're kicking Ukrainian men out of Poland, sending them back to fight"

@Novichok
While the guy in the video is not reliable IMO, the idea that Ukraine men will be rounded up is not surprising. While the numbers of Ukraine have dropped dramatically in Krakow over the last six months, I have always been surprised by how many men are here. Men of fighting age, no wedding rings, and no family in tow. While I understand every person has a right to object to being forced to fight in a war, that objection should be made in a court, and not by fleeing the jurisdiction. There are an awful lot of wealthy Ukraine men of fighting age driving nice cars in Krakow, and that makes me wonder just how corrupt Ukraine continues to be.

That's not enough. They are very 'eastern' in mentality and very different to Poland. It's a hybrid regime and is likely to remain so for a very long time. That doesn't justify Russia invading them though. Ukraine have a right to govern themselves however imperfectly they do it. They also have a right to join NATO if they want to and NATO wants to have them.

Ukraine's Non-Bloc (neutral) status, established in 1990 by the Declaration of State Sovereignty of the country, provides for the refusal to participate in military alliances and to host foreign bases on its territory.

If Ukraine has changed its mind, Russia has the right to change its mind as well, and withdraw its recognition of Ukraine's sovereignty, along with all the territorial "gifts" it has received over the past hundreds of years. From Donetsk and Odessa to Lwow and Transcarpathia.

What a load of ludicrous cobblers. Once Russia recognized Ukraine's sovereignty it accepted their right to make their own decisions and form their own policies regarding neutrality or anything else. It's no longer any of Russia's business. Get over it.

... and receive consequences of this decisions in full... What we see now in the news.

You're far too serious, Rich.

In all our years here, no one has convinced anyone of anything.

Even worse, whatever moderate progress is made, can be erased in an instant when some Kostya comes and announces that the Nazis did Katyn.

Let us become more flexible, more innovative in our approaches. Perhaps then, there might be some results.

You don't mean consequences. You mean punishment. Russia has no right to mete out punishment to other countries for refusing to be dictated to. We're now approaching the second quarter of the twenty first century. People's thinking has moved on from serfs and overlords. Do you have a handlebar moustache and prodigious whiskers by any chance? :)

I'm surprised at how clear-eyed you are re: Ukraine.

Pray tell, how did you come to form this opinion? Just through reading the press, some time spent in Ukraine itself, or through engaging with Ukrainians living in Poland?

Well Bobko, before the war I didn't know much about Ukraine except that the Crimea had once been part of Tsarist Russia (the summer palace at Livadia springs to mind) and in more recent years I was aware of the predictably unstable political situation there. I say predictable because of their history. I remember the poisoning of Viktor Yuschenko for example and later on when they locked up Yulia Tymoshenko. So let's just say I knew they had a chequered history and were a nation trying to break a cycle.

When Russia invaded, I decided to gen up on the present situation in Ukraine and did a bit of research. I always look at Amnesty International reports and HRW (Human Rights Watch). So, yes, a nation in a constant state of flux, struggling to sort themselves out - and that's the crux. They have a right to do that, free of interference by Russia or anybody else.

I haven't had that many interactions with Ukrainians but they strike me as an odd mix of arrogance if they're well educated and roughness if they're not. Alcohol abuse and domestic violence are rife. Their kids are wild, very different to Polish children. Poles always care what impression they make and what others think of them. They like to be seen to be respectable, have certain standards etc. Ukrainians don't seem to care.

The arrogance and sense of entitlement comes through in Zelensky's apparent lack of gratitude for help received and constant demands for more. In Ireland there have been a few faux pas by the Ukrainian ambassador which have ruffled a few feathers and some complaints and demands by Ukrainian refugees which have hurt and offended Irish people who've bent over backwards to make them welcome.

I'm not at all sure that admitting them to the EU is a wise move. I think they're too big, too poor and too corrupt to be successful members of an organisation that is already struggling with the accession states who don't share the Winnie the Pooh style values of founding EU members. Ukraine is definitely Game of Thrones territory.

However, the bottom line is that no normal human being could be other than horrified by Russia's actions nor other than sympathetic to the people of Ukraine for what's happened.

Let's leave this discussion aside. I think we know where our respective positions lie.


I wonder if you feel this applies to Eastern Slavs at large, or just Ukrainians. That is, would you describe Russians in the same terms? We Russians like to think of ourselves as humble people, slow to anger - but implacable if driven over the edge. The relevant Russian aphorism is: "Russians are slow to saddle up, but quick to ride."

Though we're fighting a war against them now, I'm still a little hurt at your characterization of them - since in the end they are family.


Without any anti-Semitism, I'd like to point out he is not Ukrainian. He's a Jewish comedian, with a fairly poor education, that grew up in profoundly anti-Semitic Ukraine. He has spent his life working in the quasi-criminalized entertainment industry of Ukraine, which is full of thuggish personalities. This has likely led him to form some defensive instincts, which may come across as crass behavior. I don't think he is actually representative of how Ukrainians conduct themselves.

However, it's not possible to argue with your impressions of the refugees staying in Ireland. So maybe I'm off, and Zelensky is actually representative of the country at large.

Finally someone explains to me these EU values that we are always defending, I was wondering about the source and thats a very good way of putting it, thank you for this!

Can somebody please contact PiS and explain to them that they really need to read the book, analyse it in depth and absorb its hidden messages asap. Then we might be able to start agreeing on a few things!

weird russian approach to ethnicity which I will never understand.....

If he wins this war with russia, this may change, but if he loses, he will be responsible for all this.

From the few I've met, no. I've never met a Russian person in real life that I didn't like. But then I've never been to Russia. All the Russians I've met are those who decided to come west. For me as an Irish person, I find them to be warmer, more outgoing and relaxed than Poles. They have a great sense of humour too. The ones I've met I liked. But there's no doubt that the Russian psyche has a savage streak in it. A bit like the Japs who can spend five hours making a pot of tea but will bury you up to your neck in the desert at the drop of a hat.

No doubt about that.


Dearest Atch - you are aware this is a derogatory term, yes?

If you live in PC land maybe - in the world of Atch it's normal, vernacular parlance, a simple abbreviation for Japanese. It's better than 'Nips' :))

@Atch

I want to thank you for what you wrote about us. Rereading it now, it's quite kind.

Few Russians could have written something along those lines, since we're sort of a "self-hating" people. The sense of humor is probably one derivative of this, as it is with the English (despite what Mafketis writes about our lack of self-awareness). The fact that for the longest time much of our population were serfs at the whim of a property-holder, as opposed to the more self-reliant Cossacks - is probably what accounts for our warmness as well. A Russian will give you the coat off his back, without a second thought - as poor people are wont to do.

I have said this for well over a year now. It is the sentiment of a majority of Americans now. I am unfortunately beginning to take the view that they should not be in the EU as well. I am of the view that they should not be in NATO. The level of government and mility firings shows the continued level of corruption in Ukraine. I think Ukraine should be neutral with some security assurances from the EU, not from the US. While this is a fight for "democracy", the US is facing their own fight for democracy, and frankly should not be leading this fight until its own house is in order.

Why the hell, then, did you give me such a hard time for the first year of this war?

@Bobko
I also think Putin should be killed, and Russia should be beaten. I have never voiced support for NATO in Ukraine. I thought at one point it could happen, but the US doesnt want it and it never will. The EU can give security and welcome Ukraine in at some point. The war is simply little Vlad trying to show his strength and he has gotten his ass kicked for it. But that can change in 16 months, and I think that is his strategy now. Nothing personal about the hard time.

You're ok too.

Best of luck with your business in Krakow.

I want to see him on trial with all his crimes spelled out for the world and him in the dock to answer for them.


They may not have the choice.

Meanwhile, a whole unit of 'elite' r*SSian special forces were killed last night, every last one of them and their corpses left to rot on the battlefield.

As serious as 500,000 dead men and the fact that Russia simply cannot afford to lose this war.
Sarcasm is good in small doses and must be clear it is just that - sarcasm.
When your entire post is nothing but sarcasm you are helping your enemies and confusing your friends.

Way to land your point.

Look, like I said... me being consistent for a year has not changed anything. I decided to allow myself some liberties. Doesn't mean I don't understand what is at stake.