Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 8

President of Niger was ousted by the army. That's what a illegal overthrow is - taking power with use of force, usually of military nature.

Yanuk ran from citizen protests he tried to put down but failed. Military (at least snipers who shot people on the Maidan) were on his side.

@Lyzko


Yep that sh*t blew my mind also :)


You mean oligarch funded protests? let's get our fundamental definitions right here. If you think the 'colour revolutions' were real grassroots then i have another bridge or beach mansion in florida to sell ya.

@Novichok
Respectfully, I was in the Donbas in 2019 amd 2020. It was overwhelmingly Ukrainian. Russian military or quasi military units everywhere, but it was not a Russina place by any definition. Ukrainian people simply did not leave their homes and said fvck it when the Russians came because it wasnt effecting most of their lives. When crossiing into the Donbas, it was the Russians that were more agressive in their tone than the Ukrainians when I crossed back.

Russia started the war. Whether you look at it nearly two years ago, or nearly ten years ago. You start a war, people will die on your side. Russia can stop all of this simply by leaving or telling the world you are ready for talks at a certain time and place, invite Z and if he doesnt show, then you have something.

Except this russian-friendly oligarch got chosen in free elections and talked about signing EU association three years of his term. Nobody overthrew Yanuk. Overthrowing means establishing new government before old government left the country. There was no coup in Ukraine, dummy. President fled the country after unsuccessfully trying to crush massive civilian protests - and then was unanimously removed from office by the Parliament (328 members voted for, about 73% of its 447 members, 0 voted against).

- Yanukovych was declared no longer president of Ukraine,
- interim head of state was appointed,
- new elections were called.

What is important is that the transition of power was supported by the parliament, not by the military.

There is due procedure to do this, was it followed?

Kamil Galeev on the current situation....

TLDR points

russia makes more weapons

russia depends on western companies

they're still supplying russia

if russia 'wins' then the US will take a major international hit

the problem wont' be 'the US always loses' but 'US allies always lose'

could encourage China regarding Taiwan (and lots of other potential conflicts

those at the top don't understand this because they don't know how things work because they're not interested in that....

twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1730956212227723434

When Yanuk got to power in 2010, he broke the constitution and changed his powers, which he shouldn't do without reelection. So his rule became illegitimate and unconstitutional almost immediately. There wasn't any concern about legitimacy by Russians at the time. In ideal world, Ukrainian citizens should have overthrown Yanuk right after that. Just like, for example, American citizens should overthrow president if he declared himself king and fired congress, senate and high courts.

With all due respect to the third poster quoted above and all the disrespect to the first two...I remained unmoved by any of your comments about Russia. Here is why...

The US is the world's gold standard regarding interventions and invasions. No other country has caused directly or indirectly more deaths since 1946 by sticking its dick where it didn't belong. Yet, nobody in the US and US wh*res was ever charged for these crimes and, thus, made them acceptable and normal.

In comparison, Russia is a kindergarten bully who recently decided he had enough sand kicked into his face. I can do metaphors, too...

Since you, gentlemen, somehow fail to keep things in perspective, God put me on this earth to help you see things better and further. As much as you may dislike the concept, justice and fairness are based 100% on whataboutism. We call it legal precedences and discrimination when A is treated worse than B.

Yes, inconvenient precedences are a bit*ch, and "freedom and democracy" rings hollow to dead Koreans, Vietnamese, Iraqis, and other victims of the Western nation builders who somehow never manage to ask the locals if they want their nation to be improved. Especially if by force.

Exactly.


Of course.


That is very convenient for you to start with a date of your choosing. But even with this date you seem to forget that the Soviet Union was also sticking its dick where it didn't belong and causing directly or indirectly deaths due to that.

Also, whatever the US did in some far away parts of the world - none of it is Ukraine's fault. So as cms neuf put it - what on Earth are you prattling on about?

One more time...If it's moral and legal for the West, it's moral and legal for the East. Duh!


I started when Germany lost WW2. Have a better date for invasions and deaths in large numbers?

Who said it's moral and legal for the West, Mr Echo Chamber? How many times have I stated on this forum that I was against the US invasion of Iraq?


Yeah. 1939, for example.

Nobody gives a fvck what you were against.
The ICC said it was OK to kill thousands in Iraq by doing nothing. No arrest warrant for Bush. Poland said it was OK by joining.

What countries has Ukraine invaded ? Stop boring everyone shitless talking about Iraq and Bush.

How do you know? You can't speak for everybody, Mr Narcissist.


en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_and_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq

"the International Criminal Court has a mandate to examine the conduct during the conflict, but not whether the decision to engage in armed conflict was legal."


That was one Polish government. Another one decided to pull out Polish soldiers from Iraq.

Ukraine sent forces to Iraq and Afghanistan, despite Russian howls.

It supplied the Georgians "emergency" surface to air missiles, so they could shoot down a few of our planes.

With "brothers" like this, who needs enemies.

A few peacekeepers - not offensive forces like Udmurtia's drunken farm boys

And selling weapons to Georgia is just fine - the Georgians are using those for self defense

You personally share responsibility, because formally this government was democratically elected, and you are one of voters.

Cms neuf asked which countries Ukraine invaded. Ukraine forces didn't take part in the invasion:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_involvement_in_the_Iraq_War

"Ukraine began its involvement in the Iraq War on 5 June 2003, shortly after the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Throughout the conflict, Ukrainian troops were limited to a peacekeeping role"


Still not an invasion.


You were never their brothers in the first place, imho (or, if you were - that was a very long time ago...).


No, I don't. I didn't vote for that government. I don't even remember if had voting rights at that time yet lol In the first elections in which I participated I voted for the government that promised to pull out Polish soldiers from Iraq (PO-PSL coalition).

@Velund
Either way, seeing Russian Federation's actions nowadays. Aiding U.S.A in a military conflict to take out Saddam Hussain, hardly a bad thing.

It helped Poland become more firmly a ally to the U.S.A and closer bonds with other NATO forces. That seems to have been a very smart move.

No matter how any anti-American gonna howl about Iraq war. It was a war against tyranny. Even if a very small tyrant, and very one sided. With lots of unnecessary casualties.

Every day that goes by with Russian troops in Ukraine, legitimises aiding U.S.A in that war. So yeah, go ahead. Drag in that conflict in to every single discussion. Let us win :)

Why are these losers still spouting nonsense on here when their country needs men to win this virtuous war ?

Dust off your WW1 rifles and sign up !

That's strange then, why they came to their "Father Tsar" for protection against the Polish szlachta tyrany.

Quote from Pereyaslav Agreement in the original:

"Той Великий Государь, Царь християнский, сжалившися над нестерпимым озлоблением православныя церкви в нашей малой России, шестьлетных наших молений безпрестанных не презривши, теперь милостивое своё Царское сердце и нам склонивши, своих великих ближних людей к нам с Царскою милостыо своею прислати изволил, которого естьли со усердием возлюбим, кроме Его Царския высокия руки благотишнейшего пристанища не обрящем; а будет кто с нами не согласует теперь, куды хочет, вольная дорога. К сим словам весь народ возопил: волим под Царя Восточного, православного, крепкою рукою в нашей благочестивой вере умирати, нежели не навистнику Христову, поганину, достати."

Source: ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%8F%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B0?wprov=sfti1#%D0%93%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%82_%D0%B2_%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%8F%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5

@Bobko, maybe they thought you were their brothers at that time. RuSSians are good at fooling people :)

@Bobko
Politics, they were starting to lose. At those times rebels received very harsh and cruel punishments mind you. They saw a alliance with Moscow as more giving then a guaranteed death, even with vassal like status which could have been seen as a necessary but, only temporary solution (which became a more long-term situation. Caused by Polish elites view of Rusyns and risk of more rebellions and loss of land, wish for investing east became surely less attractive after that)

Nobody gaf about your personal vote. Only outcome is matters and anyone who was able to change it is responsible. Even those who never visited polling station.

... and now Russia's economy is switched into war production mode and is probably able to rebuild the potential lost in Ukraine in about 3 years (maybe even a bit faster with the help of Iran, North Korea and other "friends"), so this is the time limit that we have to think about when preparing our defenses. We have to assume that Ukraine will fall by then and after that the eastern flank of NATO will be challenged.

As much as it hurts me as an incorrigible Russophile, we have to be ready for war with Russia in about 3 years. If we are given more time, brilliant, but the 3 coming years is the most vital period for strengthening our army.

That's not how it works, Ms. Civics. Your gov, your liability.
When your government is forced to pay for the crimes it committed, it does not allocate taxes to pay for them on how you voted or felt. Duh!


I am so impressed with the intelligence of PF Russians and depressed by the stupidity of the Poles here. The same with the American posters. Both brilliant, honest, unafraid, blunt, and always correct.


Another throwaway meaningless crap trying to be funny...just to say something...however baseless...let's see if it sticks...

That's how it works in my book.
How is that "my" liability? lol Will I go to prison for war crimes committed by some soldier in Iraq? No, because I wasn't a soldier committing a war crime in Iraq. Will I go to prison for sending soldiers to Iraq in order to invade it? No, because I wasn't a politician sending Polish soldiers to Iraq. That's as far as legal responsibility is concerned.

As for moral responsibility - I didn't vote for the government that sent Polish soldiers to Iraq. It's possible that I didn't even have voting rights back then yet. I was against the invasion of Iraq and I voted for a party that promised to pull out Polish soldiers from Iraq.


Another Mr Narcissist. Speak for yourself.

I personally do care whether some Russian/RuSSian voted for Putin or not and whether someone supports the invasion of Ukraine by RuSSia or not. If a Russian person doesn't vote for Putin and is against the invasion of Ukraine, then this person has a clear conscience in my book. Get it?


I wasn't trying to be funny. I wrote what I think.

Btw, Velund, first you write something like this:


And only later, when it turns out that I didn't vote for that government, you claim that nobody gives a f*ck about my "personal vote" :D

Make up your mind, Velund, because it makes you look like either a rather confused person or dishonest one or maybe not as intelligent as Novichok presents you to be :)))


Sorry, but how a teenage girl with no voting rights could stop Polish government from sending Polish soldiers to Iraq? Are you retarded? lol

Not for me. We don't always have influence on the outcome of historical events. They may be beyond our power as individuals. But we do have an influence on our personal choices and views. And that's something we can be held responsible for.

So, it was ok for teenage girls to mix molotov cocktails to burn alive opposition activists in Odessa Trade Union House, or with yellow-blue flag participate in the meetings near Russian embassy in Warsaw, but oops, the same teenage girls cannot be responsible for anything, because no voting right yet?