Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 8

So many scandals now, yet they keep on going.

Biden doesnt have the votes in the House to pass it:)

@Novi @Joker

Gentlemen, apparently you missed this...

@Torq

Welcome back, sir! Missed you!

Thank you, Bobi. Missed you too.

I came to the conclusion that depriving this board of my wisdom was too cruel on my part. :)

I missed:

Europe to America: We are strong. We are brave. We have nukes. Go home. We don't need you anymore.

Wake me up when the EU sends this email to DC.

Also, define support. We love you and we wish you the very best is not support.

Most certainly.

You come at an auspicious time, too. Ukrainian dupas are exploding like never before from epic act of "betrayal" from PL, HU, and SK.

A sample of Ukrainian twitter today:

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Aaaaah yes... our dear Ukrainian friends and allies and their eternal gratitude. *rolls eyes*

They seem to have long tongues and deep pockets but rather short memories. This war would have been over long time ago if it hadn't been for our help for them, but apparently they expect us to ruin our farming first and now transport companies on top of that. Perhaps they should rather sort out the corruption problem in their country first, because the level of theft in Ukraine makes even the most resourceful Russian businessmen blush like teenage virgins.

@Torq
Not only that, they are protecting big corporations too. Last I checked, ain't many Ukrainian farmers in Ukraine. This is not Poland vs Ukraine as much as farmers vs big corpo

@Gruni

Exactly. Polish, Slovak and Hungarian small and mid-size farmers versus Ukrainian oligarchs and big international corporations.

@Torq

I've been reading about this for the past week or two. TBH, mostly in the Ukrainian press. The reason they are moaning so much, is because it's actually quite serious.

This blockade is causing greater damage to Ukraine, than any sanctions do for Russia. Supply chains are being broken, and hundreds of millions of dollars of goods are getting stuck daily.

Since the Odessa ports became unusable, the UA/PL border has come to account for the lion's share of Ukraine's exports. It's impossible to replace the multiple crossings there, by redirecting traffic through still friendly Romania. The Slovaks and Hungarians are openly telling the Ukrainians to get lost. Valuable customs and tax revenues are being lost to the UA government, while prices for things like fuel are growing for UA consumers. Hence, all the drama on Twitter and in their press.

On the other hand, I saw the Poles cite statistics that there were something like 162,000 Ukrainian trucks entering the country before the war, and the number is now at over a million.

Most recently, the Polish and Ukrainian delegations hammered out some kind of compromise where empty Polish trucks will be allowed to leave faster along a separate lane.

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@Torq


Why though? The PiS government has stopped new weapon deliveries to Ukraine and instigated grain blockades that have been highly damaging for the Ukrainian economy. Unless the new Polish government stops permitting other deliveries to go through Poland, I'd argue there are not many ways they could mean bad news for Ukraine. And I am not aware of any such plans.


Where does this idea come from? If there is one thing successive German governments have been adamant about is the continued American presence in Europe. If anything we have been and still are too unprepared for the scenario of the USA deciding to entirely withdraw from Europe (which is sadly realistic under a second Trump presidency). Just a reminder, the USA reducing their troops in Germany under Trump was not a German success but a punishment by Trump.

You would rather expect Russians do it, I see.

Ukraine's situation is quite serious in general. I read today that rebuilding Ukraine would cost from 350 (very conservative estimate) to as much as 800 billion euro. And the war is far from over! At some point realpolitik might kick in with everybody concentrating more on hard cash costs instead of morality, democracy, freedom etc. It's not like it never happened in the past.


Because PiS has always been zoologically anti-Russian and it took an enormous amount of "diplomatic talent" on the Ukrainian side to antagonize them (but even then, they would still support Ukraine against Russia, maybe to a lesser extent but still). KO is much more pragmatic, less romantic and more German-like in their approach to foreign politics. If the EU core decides to abandon Ukraine, Tusk's governement will comply.


Years of observation. Criticism of American foreign policies (becoming more vocal since the 2003 invasion of Iraq) and German-Russian brotherhood culminating in the NS and NS2 common energy projects (at the expense of their EU allies). Also, this entire "Europe from Lisbon to Vladivostok" pipe dream was from the beginning directed against American influence in Europe. Even the invasion of Crimea wasn't enough of a wake up call. It took a full-scale war in the east for Germany to reconsider their pro-Russian approach but whether it is a constant and consistent shift in attitude still remains to be seen.

Stop confabulating. No Polish gov, with the exception of Konfederacja`s, would abandon Ukraine and its fight for independence.
I see you have come back only to spread your usual bs. No agreement to it. Sorry, Torq or Kania, whatever nick you adopt.

If you are under the impression that Donald Tusk as the PM would staunchly oppose a EU-core decision to limit the aid to Ukraine, then you would seem to know rather little about the former president of the European Council. PO has always adopted the German line in all things EU and I can't see that changing now. Which, of course, is not necessarily a bad thing for Poland. Basically, we are switching from a very pro-American to a very pro-German governement. But you know that as well as I do - it's Polish Politics 101.

OK, let`s wait and see what future brings. If any of us is wrong on Donald Tusk, he will go under the table and bark.


Of course, it is not true.

What about a pro Russian stance when is that going to happen?

Like Slovakia or Hungary I mean. Why just pro USA or Germany?

I don't get why Poland could never be like Russia and having sex with young girls unlike Russia was never acceptable here. Can anyone explain it to me? Russia is also a Christian and Slavic nation so why is Poland so diff in this regard? Anyone heard of madha babko? If not look her up on YouTube she's w cultural icon in Russia. Why do you guys think she was able to give lody or bjs to a man in his 50s at 14 and love it and girls like her not even existing in Poland he'll not even 16 yr olds?

Cause Poland is not filled with psychotic pedophiles, unlike russia.... maybe you need to settle there.....

For some reason, Kania attracted Sralec back to the forum.

Strange coincidence that they should reappear on the same day.

@maf

No comment on what's more effective - sanctions against Russia, or EU embargo of Ukraine?

As an American..... PiS has never struck me as especially pro-American especially their commie attempts to take American owned tvn24 off the air.....

... and he seems to be pro-Russian too. The most disgusting individual on PF taking the Russian side - I bet you could do without such support. :-/


They are. Not because they love America, but being both anti-Russian and anti-German the US seems to them like a natural ally. The anti-TVN antics were a sorry attempt to monopolise all the main media in Poland which, luckily, they failed to do.

He used to be pro-Ukrainian. Most strange.

We could do without such allies.

@Tacitus
Slight correction. PiS stopped delivering Polish weapons, and Polish resources to Ukraine. They are still delivering US weapons to Ukraine as they come in.

Not quite. The delivery of Krab artillery ordered by Ukrainians last year is under way.

As well as artillery ammo, Starlink terminals and medical equipment (as recently as last month). The deliveries decreased but haven't stopped.

The problem is that Hungarians are now blocking Poland's EPF compensation funds for weapon deliveries to Ukraine. Orban is being such a pain in the arse, it's unbelievable. I wonder when the EU will lose their patience with this guy.

I really dont get how someone can worry about EU support for Ukraine when the PiS government has de facto already abandonded Kiev with their decision to no longer send new weapons to Ukraine.

If anything the new government might actually lead to further EU aid for Ukraine since it will hopefully stop shielding Russia's agent Orban.

Orban is only in a position to sabotage aid to Ukraine because PiS has consistenly enabled him.


Which was only a brief period and only due the fallout of the illegal invasion of Iraq. Ironically Schröder had been highly supportive of Bush until then, even risking his chancellorship when he declared that Germany would participate in Afghanistan. It was only when Bush lied to his face about Iraq that things changed. Afterwards Merkel has closely cooperated with Bush and Obama afterwards, just as Biden does with Scholz.


Perhaps from the Russian point of view. But from Germany it was an reflection of what had already been achieved in Western Europe. A peaceful and prosperous continent with like-minded democracies. A pipe-dream as it turned out, but certainly worth a try.

That is why we need to get rid of this liberum veto system in the EU as soon as possible. Voting Hungary out of the EU by the simple majority will be a sufficient threat for Orban to stop his dirty games.