Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 8

At some point it became a necessity; we sent so much that it seriously endangered the battle readiness of our own army (that's one of the reasons for mass panic purchases in the US and Korea).


Worth a try indeed. I wonder when exactly it all went wrong and if Putin planned it from the very beginning...


Yip. It was the downfall of the First Rzeczpospolita and it will be the downfall of the EU, if we don't get rid of it.

Orban: The EU is undemocratic!

also Orban: If you don't do what I say I'll override the votes of 27 other countries!

still also Orban: Give me money!!!!!!

I thought you would oppose it coz it might also harm Polish interests in the future, eg stricter laws on environment protection etc.

I will worry about it when and if it happens in the future.

At the moment, there are more pressing matters to worry about which require the EU to be a stronger and more efficient union. Besides, I am not going to automatically assume any bad will towards Poland from other EU members. It's time for us to stop putting a stick in EU's spokes and do our bit as a major, responsible EU country.

Be that as it may, if Ukraine is to prevail they'll need a steady flow of weapons for the next (likely) few years. It was a mistake in my eyes to completely stop new pledges instead of downgrading them, if only to a mostly symbolical amount. Not only because it hurts Ukraine directly but also because it has also seriously weakened Warsaw's role as an advocator of further support for Kiev in the future.

One of many mistakes that the previous government made, but in general their overall contribution to the Ukrainian war effort was immense.

Not a bad thing; to replace it with a Europe of nations with less political power and less of a push for integration would be an ideal outcome.

Orban is trying to force Ukraine to the negotiation table. I disagree with the tectics, but agree with the intent. If Ukraines neighbors are suffering, then they might apply pressure as well. I think Orban walks a fine line. Hungary is not as powerful as Turkey in NATO or in any negotiations. The EU could kick them out and not have any problems.

Poland has to deliver the remaining items contracted for. But they do not have to sell anything else to Ukraine or donate anything else. Poland has done enough along these lines and along the lines of helping Ukraine people. The rest of the EU pales in comparison.

As for the EU leading the US in assistance; The EU leads in total aid, when including financial aid to refugee's. The EU is far behind the US in military aid, and the EU should be way ahead for one of its neighbors.

More than weapons (of which the West has little left), the Ukrainians need men.

What good are weapons, if there is nobody to use them?

You have all chances to behold its resurrection!

For whom? Certainly not for the fragmented, divided and defenseless EU.

@Bobko
Ukraine has enough weapons to get through to February. They are not going to run out unless the US doesnt send more in January. That said, it is certainly up for debate how Ukraine can continue when they wont do a full mobilization and troops are worn out now. Lots of men of fighting age in Krakow. So someone is getting paid off somewhere.

Given that the three day special operation has lasted nearly 2 years and they've lost 330,000 young men in a country with an already declining population, I doubt that.

Whenever the future for r*SSia is looking particularly bad, the mysterious vatniks here double down with their ridiculous posts. That is mirrored cross the Internet on newspaper BTL pages infested by Glavet trolls.


For those countries currently in the EU that are regarded as bit players by France and Germany. There's no reason to have an EU in its present form. It was fine as the Common Market.

@Torq


You can replace EU with Europe. If the EU fails, all Europeans are screwed down the line, all the more if they happen to live closer to Russia.

Perhaps something better can be created, something less integrationist.

It is always easier to destroy something than to rebuild it. Once it is broken, there is no guarantee that it can be put together again.

It took Europe 1500 years after the fall of the Roman Empire to achieve that kind of peace and unity again. And even then we got lucky because we had the right politicians with the proper motivation to make it work.

It is a pity how people take the many benefits of the EU for granted.


There is not, unless you want to see the European countries maintain their independence and prosperity against Russia and other rivals on the horizon.

Hey, genius, European countries maintained their prosperity because of Russia, not despite it. Google Russia oil gas. You will be amazed...

The problem (one of them, anyway) is the drive among some member states towards integration, towards behaving as if it were one country.


Which can be done as a free trade alliance as easily and any other way.

No need to try and tell individual countries what weights and measures their consumers can or can't buy in or try to standard laws that do not relate to trade or whether or not they can nationalise industries or have public tenders closed to businesses abroad.

@jon357
Strong points. In theory the EU would be stronger as only an economic block and not the political body it has become. While it would be harder for new countries to enter the economic block, the political body makes it easier, though Ukraine and Moldova would not say its easy. The EU, specifically Germany and France have been feeling the effects of a terrible immigration policy for years. Yet they still, as a political body want to force the same bad policy on Poland. More like we fvcked our selves and now you need to be just as fvcked, instead of, hey dont do this.

Meanwhile, NATO head has come out to say we should expect bad news from Ukraine. This while the former president was stopped from leaving Ukraine yesterday because among his meetings outside of the country on was to be with Orban, this after he received permission to leave. And arms production was down about 3 percent in 2022, on new production reports, and there is a lot of backlog on production orders as industry takes it time to scale up. Scaling up in a non war time economy is proving to be difficult in the US. And in the US, congress is still split and there is no movement on aid to Ukraine.

A "Europa der Vaterländer"....

It might come to that....the leftists who want the EU also left leaning are losing in the whole of Europe....in Germany also, but here it takes more time and more elections due our federal organization!

I dare a guess that in about five years Europe will end this illegal mass immigration...not only with laws but also with a common physical border....agreed and financed and build and put into laws in a way it is right now not yet possible in the EU bodies.

apart from poland.. but it's swings and roundabouts. The PO federalists will be outnumbered.


What australia did? it's pretty easy. Use the Navy to transfer them from their unsafe dinghies into military grade safe small vessels that can only go one way via gps. ie turn back the boats.

Polish leftists are on another plane than say german leftists....I very much doubt Tusk plans to open polish borders to the masses now!

certainly not, and even the current German government is sealing the borders. Border controls, including those with Poland, have been extended despite kilometer-long traffic jams on highways at the border.

And thanks to them illegal border crossings have dropped by 50% from what I've hears.

That's true, but now all those caught apply for asylum in Germany. So maybe they would go on to Great Britain. I wonder what the final result will be.

One worry is people (a politician in Italy recently advocated for this) who see the German federal model as a blueprint for a federal Europe.

In terms of defence and r*SSia, we'd do better to look at AUKUS, Five Eyes and NATO. Economically, we'd do well to look at how we can co-operate with like minded countries beyond Europe. Maybe I'm an optimist however the best of both worlds is something we should go for.


I suspect he means setbacks however there is of course the possibility that he knows a great deal that we don't.

"NATO Secretary General in an interview with Das Erste said that Kyiv is in a critical situation, and everything could get even worse if the West does not increase arms supplies."

If someone had told Thatcher and Reagan that they could have neutralised r*SSia for a trillion pounds, they'd have jumped at that chance.

That is not a problem, it is the end goal we should strive for. We need a European army, and a European forein policy Europe either succeeds together, or falls divided. If countries like Russia and China are undermining you, you are doing something right in my book.

And there are a lot of countries outside of Europe who would like to see us fall.


The close economic cooperation we have now is only possible because the EU has at its' core always been a political projects.

Great words.

As is every project. None however need to had in the direction of assimilation.


Do we?


Would a Europe of independent countries allied with former colonies elsewhere be 'divided'?

Again, depends on whether you wish for the European countries to be able to secure themselves against agressors.

Europe's importance is rapidly declining as other parts of the world grow in importance. We can observe how difficult it has become to isolate Russia now. The new rising powers China, India, Brazil and countries in Africa are not symphatic towards us. How will things look in 20 years when'll only have a fraction of our current influence and economic importance?


Your mistake is assuming that those former colonies share our interests. Maybe the smaller, poorer do, as long as we pay them, but the Ukraine war has shown that e.g. India's vital interests are very much different from our own and they act accordingly. You can expect them to send you bills for reparations next once they are influential enough. The French are currently experiencing a hard awakening from their African dreams. The British are probably next, even if it takes a few more years.

We most likely will not be able to keep the US, who most closely resemble us, engaged in Europe. Looking for allies even farther away with less reason to help and more to resent us, is hardly a convincing prospect.