Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 8

Hmm, this looks like bullsh1t to me. Most of the corruption scandals in Ukraine that I've read about in Polish press during the war were discovered and reported by Ukrainian journalists. 🤔

What is really happening.

Narratives are going to be narratives. To pretend Ukraine isn't what it is (whatever that might truly be) simply to counter false narratives just makes for another false narrative.

Remember, Ukraine is using this invasion to wiggle into the EU and NATO. You buy into a false narrative for the sake of expediency, you are painting yourself into a corner that might come back to bite you.

I practically don't read Russian newspapers, except for Kommersant and Vedomosti (both business journals). Vedomosti actually used to be run as a joint venture between Dow Jones/WSJ and a local publisher.

Most of my information is from Western/Ukrainian sources. In Ukraine, I read first and foremost the Ukrainian Pravda (sort of the newspaper of record over there, don't be misled by the "Pravda"). Then I read also Censor.Net, which is more of a Ukrainian Breitbart or RedState. A lot more fire and brimstone on that website.

Beyond the two newspapers, I read the Facebook accounts of many Ukrainian military and political persons (Facebook is still very popular in Ukraine). Then, there is also Telegram. Ukrainian telegram is just as boisterous as Russian Telegram - most interesting discussions actually happen there. Far from the prying eyes of Putin and Zelensky.

When it comes to Western press, I'm very careful to see the byline to understand if it's a journalist I know. If it's a guy that was Moscow Bureau Chief for the Washington Post, for ten years - I'm willing to entertain his thoughts. If it's an intern that just graduated from the Columbia School of Journalism, and is writing for Business Insider about Russian submarines - I wholeheartedly ignore it. It could also be some specialist on "air/land/sea/space warfare and everything in between", writing articles about the war for Forbes.com, but only when a Russian ship is sunk or plane is downed. These mega experts I don't read either.

....only as consequence of Putin's invasion!

I never got that....Putin is losing everything....not only it's safe and secure gas-money-machine with the West, of course all it's neighbours who don't want that happen to them too are looking now to the West....that was so sure like the amen in a church, but still he must have thought the invasion as good for his "empire"....

I disagree with the precept. To acknowledge Ukraine's corruption and anti-liberal democratic policies is not a justification for an invasion or any type of foreign intervention, anymore than to deny its corruption and anti-liberal policies is to justify it as a good faith candidate into unions and alliances that purport to be anti-corruption and liberal democracies.


And that is exactly my point! We are willing to surrender all past reservations about Ukraine's worthiness to join these unions, because of Putin's actions. Putin's actions, regardless of how bad they are, do not (or, should not) mitigate the reality of Ukraine's past and present rampant corruption and questionable policies. We are surrendering objectivity toward Ukraine to our subjective attitude toward Putin. In that sense, this invasion is the single best thing to have ever happened to Ukraine.

....not even when it totally sounds like that story that this invasion is about liberating the Ukrainians from them mean Nazis by the of course anti-corrupt and so liberal democratic Russians?


Yup....wouldn't happen without Putin!

Who knows....maybe Kiew planned the russian invasion to gain entry? If so, the Ukrainians are smarter than thought, and Putin totally walked into that trap! :)

...an interesting possibility....

@Bratwurst Boy

It seems like you are saying we must accept bullsh!t, our only choice is what accent of bullsh!t we should choose.

@Bobko

Sounds like a reasonable aggregation of info.

@AntV

In as few words as possible...

Transparency International, or whatever other corruption index exists, always ranks Russia somewhere lower than Ukraine (I think this is still true).

This never made sense to anyone I ever spoke to, who has some modicum of knowledge about the two places. It sort of called into question, the entire methodology employed in producing these surveys.

Even if you are in Georgia or Uzbekistan - Ukrainian corruption is simply legendary. Literally, legendary.

When they invited the former president of Georgia, Mikheil Saakashvilli (who despite being an autist and an idiot, performed great reforms in Georgia) to become the governor of Odessa - us cynical Russians started taking bets on the specific manner in which his story would end.

None of us, anticipated that he would be jumping between rooftops to escape Poroshenko's security services, trying to storm the Polish-Ukrainian border to get back into Ukraine, or smuggling himself into Georgia inside a refrigerated truck.

Ukraine's titanic corruption, seems to have done a number on poor Misha's mental health.

One almost feels bad for him. Because as legendary as Ukrainian corruption is, nothing is quite as legendary as Odessa's corruption. From Brighton Beach, to Vladivostok - no city produced more hard criminals and fraudsters than that place.

It's war....and the rest of Europe feels threatened too...yes, the bullshit-rules have changed! There is no objectivity left anymore...

Always doubt what Bobko claims and double-check what he's saying. I often caught him writing bullsh1t. And don't forget that he isn't a neutral party here.

Thanks Paulina :)

@Paulina

Is anyone actually neutral?

I may disagree with Bobko on stuff, but he's one of the best posters here on PF. Bobko, you can send my check in the mail ;)

Well, let us say that there are more neutral and less neutral ones :)

But besides neutrality there's also the question of honesty.


I'm not sure what you mean by "one of the best". Intelligent, educated, cultured, nice, charming? Yes, but that just makes him more dangerous as a bullsh1tter. As I wrote - I often caught him writing bullsh1t. So, be careful about believing his claims.

Finally somebody said everything clearly.

Why does it take two years to squeeze these things out of you people?

You are afraid (unreasonably so, IMHO), and therefore have abandoned all objectivity.

Ok - that's something I can actually live with.

But two years of being called every name in the book, WHILST the other side denies any fear, but instead insists that there is only contempt there - that was f*cking annoying.

Being "intelligent, educated and cultured" are derivative. What is important, is being nice.

Not many of you have been very nice)

If war is really what we're all so worried about here, being nice is probably the most practical thing we can do as little people.

Maybe, one day, some Korvinus or Kania will become Prime Minister of Poland, and by that time the kind words of some strange Russian would have deposited in their heads.

To borrow from RFK:

"Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world."

...one can only hope!

But I'm sure one could find some corruption and similiar bad stuff find in Germany too....and Nazis of course....

(I'm to old for that sh*it)

Like I said... cowards..... russians seem to have a very low instinct towards self-preservation and die in truckloads because they're too afraid to do anything else...

Despicable degenerates....

I sincerely doubt it. To find something resembling Ukrainian levels of corruption, you have to go to a place like Illinois or Omsk.

Ukraine is a classic feudal kleptocracy. It's owned by more or less 10 families. Kind of like Russia, between 1994 and 2002. Unlike Russia, they had no substance to fall back on, so they just persisted in running things the way they were.

In Ukraine, there are basically three clans. One of these clans, was formerly considered the most powerful, but has been hobbled by this war. That's the Donetsk Clan. The Donetsk Clan produced Ukraine's richest man (once Europe's richest) - Rinat Akhmetov, a president - Yanukovich, and a whole slew of prime ministers. These guys are Russian speaking, and generally pretty hard dudes. Their influence extended outside of Donetsk Oblast across most of southern and eastern Ukraine.

Next in power is the Dnipropetrovsk Clan. They produced also a president (Kuchma), and also several billionaires (head among them is Kolomoisky, owner of the country's largest bank). These guys are also Russian speaking, and pretty hard dudes (by this I mean, some criminal background). These guys controlled most of central Ukraine.

Finally, there is the Kiev Clan. This is made up of the rest, including the West. Sort of a hodgepodge of different groups, and historically this prevented them from forming a serious challenge to the Donetsk and Dnipropetrovsk boys.

Russia annexing Crimea sort of knocked the foundation out from underneath the Russian-speaking clans. Their parties were disbanded, presidents exiled, tv channels nationalized, and businesses confiscated. Now a lot of them are sitting in Moscow and Rostov, waiting for a rematch.

To me personally it doesn't mean much if someone is nice to me. What matters to me if someone is a good and honest person. That's what is important.

....but...what's that to Russia???

Other than them constantly stealing from us, it didn't really bother us much.

This is probably why people think Russia "likes" a corrupt and autocratic Ukraine, and is threatened by democracy and Europeanness.

What scared us, was when our Donetsk guys got kicked out - who had just a few years prior signed an agreement with us extending the lease on the Black Sea Fleet HQ in Sevastopol.

We figured that if the new guys are not willing to respect such fundamental things, then they will bring more surprises to us in the future.

post hoc rationalizations.... russia invaded because russians like invading other countries because it makes them feel less horrible about their own degraded lives....

@mafketis

Let's imagine...

The United States Navy has something called the Fifth Fleet. It is responsible for naval forces in the Persian Gulf, Red Sea, Arabian Sea, and parts of the Indian Ocean.

Its commander and headquarters are located in Bahrain.

Let's imagine, that the United States and Bahrain spent the years between 2008 and 2013 negotiating the legal status of this fleet and the related lease.

Finally, in 2013, Bahrain's government signs an agreement extending America's use of the port through 2050. America is happy, because it has secured for some decades a critically important outpost.

Then, some Arab Spring-type event happens in Bahrain, and the ruling royals are toppled by the Shia-majority populace, that shortly after install a "unity government".

This new government, claims that the previous agreements with the US were signed under duress. More so, it says that cooperation with the United States is no longer a strategic priority, due to its support for Israel and the bombing of Yemen. Instead, Bahrain would like Iran or China to sign a new lease for the port infrastructure.

How does the United States approach this problem?

Easy.

1. A CIA-funded counter-revolution.
2. If 1 didn't work, we would bomb the fvck out of them and make our bases permanent. To fight terrorism, of course... See Syria.

That's why I love the US and its cando spirit.

Irrelevant. The United States is a great power and russia isn't. I know that's hard to accept but it is what it is. russia will never be a great power because of your rotten governments paranoid need to prevent you from saying the wrong thing or thinking the wrong thoughts.....

bonus to make you feel proud (via Julia Davis):
"Rostislav Ishchenko, President of the Center for Systematic Analysis and Forecasting, said that he hadn't encountered anyone in Russia who was alarmed or bothered by the deaths of Ukrainians. He said that the more Ukrainians Russia kills, the better it is"

twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1742272984985870813

Why do you keep comparing broken backwards Udmurtia to the US ?

Comparing the becalmed scrap metal of the Black Sea "fleet" to the US Navy ?

Totally irrelevant - the US does what it want's because it is number 1. Mostly it's good, sometimes it's bad.

Udmurtia is maybe number 31 - a bit part player ruled by an insecure thief.

Russia will always be great power enough to defend itself but not to be the world's dumbest cop. That sh*it is extremely expensive...Like 1 trillion a year expensive...Like 34 trillion in debt expensive...the debt we will never be able to pay off...

Now you can ask me what ordinary Americans got in return...

I would not be so sure about that.
I can see a huge downfall in Russia's power coming in the next decade, if not sooner.

Of course you can, but the German system isn't built on such corruption. It seems like the Ukrainian system is intertwined with it to the point of tolerating and/or accepting it.

Yep.

That's why all their dances with drums and beads around the EU and NATO is nothing but a cargo cult. They don't actually understand the meaning, of any of the highfalutin phrases they are employing.

Simply, at some point they learned some important phrases. These include:

1) Euro-Atlantic Cooperation
2) Pluralistic society
3) Liberal democracy
4) Respect for human dignity
5) Shield of Europe
6) Arsenal of Democracy
7) Rule of law
8) Strong and independent institutions

They see how the face of some old crone from the State Department lights up, when they start this song and dance, and they see how the money from USAID and other agencies like the ExIm Bank starts flowing. So they know they did something right.

That's all. They don't understand what any of these things mean. Honestly, neither do we in Russia, but at least we don't pull the wool over the West's eyes about who we are and how we do things.