Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 8

Hey, PAK, I feel your pain debating these parasites. The most irritating thing in such discussions is that they have a point about the US being stupid enough to extend itself this much all over the globe, which gives your opponents the right to say, you wanted it, you got it, deal with it.

They have a point about who pays for the bullsh*it, too. If the US taxpayers like you and me were getting monthly bills for NATO and the war there would be a bloody revolution by now. The DC scum knows it so they borrow by adding what they spend on this crap to the debt.

When I look for the root cause of this American mental disorder, I always end up with a combination of the Magnificent Seven aka messiah complex, and Madoff.

Crooks love the naive and hate other crooks like themselves.

Still, if a factory in say for example Virginia, starts expanding and employing people who benefit from it? Martians?
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The US regardless of the low motives of the current administration is investing in the security and stability of the region. Which is in the best interest of the US and US citizens whether they see it or not.

What price will you put on those and does that include the blood of American soldiers?
That is my point. What is it that you don't understand?
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Nobody puts that like that, there was no issue of putting one or the other before, border security or homelessness, those are slogans used in a political spectacle in the fight for voters and support and have nothing to do with the real state of affairs.

Cutting down support for Ukraine won't bring any solution for the US internal issues and that is given


Yes, but that idea needs to be carefully thought over, as well as ways to get there. You can't just change your mind overnight and let it all fall apart.


It always had been that way, profit walks hand in hand with guns. What was first and what second was hard to say. still, there is something more even if you don't want to believe it.

Don't you feel pain in your joints? Your knees must be hurting like crazy for all the time you spend here on PF S... Russian Dick.

Getting personal, you lowly pos...


Hey, moron, if making things that explode were good for us, we would be making them all day long and exploding this sh*it in Nevada to keep employment up.

We wouldn't wait for another Euro war.

Let me guess...You are Polish and a graduate of the Polish School of Economics. What an imbecile...

Personal my foot, you simply don't like it because it is the truth and you have no return from it. Speaking of low nobody is lower than an American who voluntarily goes on all fours to lick Russian boots like a good little doggie.

Are you Polish, a-hole? Did you notice how PAK, Bobko, Velund, and BB are never nasty to other posters, you pos?

I have already told you ( at least I think I did) that the need to speak the truth has put me in trouble many times. Nevertheless, I deny I was nasty, I just spoke an unpleasant truth. Anyways you call everybody names and are being nasty like hell, so what's your beef? Can't stand the heat? Do me a solid here and address the issue, not a person.

Think in terms of a buffer state, that state needs to be secured for stability in the region. It will buy us at least a decade, otherwise, it will start putting pressure on borders from Finland to Romania in three or four years.


I mean it could be true for Germany but in Russia, the winner is always right.
It means that if /Putin is successful they are traitors or tools of the CIA and if he is not there will be another of his ilk who will find a way to put down any social upheaval by all means necessary. That Moscow for you.

The ukrainian army is soon a totally western one...with it's old armory replaced by western/NATO ones....add to that the western finances flowing into it and the process to become an EU-member, it already is seen and treated as a buffer state!

The most irritating thing about PF Poles is this crap that by allowing the US to defend their asses they are doing the US a favor.

No, you are not doing us any favors. You are a liability and a royal pain in the ass. If Europe became the European Sea, we would be ecstatic. I would be.

In the meantime, feel lucky I am not the US president...

@Ironside
Your point of view is the European argument. And frankly, no one from the US GAF what Europeans think. 95% of Americans couldnt find Ukraine on a map. And yes, when the US says it is no longer a good investment, it can walk away. There is a saying in investing and business; "trowing good money after bad". And Ukraine is a case of throwing good money after bad. The money should be spent in the US, thats just it. Z fvcked up. He didnt do as he was told. Therefore, Z can go F himself. This is the American way. The polietness and all the pani this and pani that of Poland is not how the US operates.

The US owes Ukraine and Europe nothing. Thats just a fact. Anything the US does is out of charity. And like every other entity, charity has its limits. So, either Z STFU and listens, or Ukraine will likely get zero moving forward. The attempt to argue the support of Ukraine on some moral plain is not how American taxpayers make their decisions. The US has given enough by way of money and lives for other people and countries. Ukraine can either do as its told, or good luck. And thats the real American way.

@Bratwurst Boy
A "buffer state" needs to STFU and do as its told, or it becomes a wasteland. It wont be a member of NATO. And the EU is stupid to take them in for a multitude of reasons, primary of which they will be obligated to go to war with Russia once it happens when Russia invades again.

Just a small little quibble with this...

Blackrock is not some evil corporation, hellbent on controlling the world. I think people confuse them with Blackstone.

Blackrock is a mutual fund. That's why it's so ridiculously huge. Together with Vanguard, and State Street, they literally own something like a third of the US stock market.

If you look globally, Blackrock probably owns approximately 2% of every public company in the world.

This is not because it wants to, but because it has to.

They have literally trillions of dollars of assets under management, and they are paid to invest these on behalf of their clients. Their clients are not Bill Gates and Scrooge McDuck, but teacher's pension funds, trade union pensions, 401K administrators, and so on. Basically, tens of millions of working people.

Yes, Blackrock would typically gain a board seat due to owning a large share, but it typically votes along a consensus basis.

Bottom line, Blackrock doesn't really own anything - it's just a shell.

Blackstone on the other hand... is a huge private equity fund, that earns money directly for its partners. And it's huge. Like a trillion dollars huge. And it's the one that does stuff like buy 50,000 rental units and jack up the price 2X for the poor tenants.

Blackstone are the "Barbarians at the Gate"-style raider capitalists, and Blackrock are a bunch of sleepy nerds that curate stock baskets.

I would use a different word for "nothing" but other than that, I couldn't say it any better.

Agreed!

Someone in the german gov stated recently that Germany will step in when the US pulls out....


On the other hand, if Russia would invade an EU/NATO Ukraine they would have also no qualms to invade....say....Poland! And then it becomes an US problem again for sure!

ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

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How did he misbehave?

Did the US consider a time out first? Making him write an essay?

As I understand it, Zelensky, Zaluzhny, and the rest of the top command ignored Western military advisor's guidance regarding how the counter-offensive should have been prosecuted.

Instead of concentrating their free formations into an single armored fist, and throwing them headlong along a single vector, the Ukrainians attacked in three places. Further, once the going got hard, they stopped throwing armor into battle, and switched to infantry infiltration tactics.

In defense of the Ukrainians, we Russians tried to do things the way the Americans wanted under Ugledar and Avdeevka. It didn't work much better.

I think the Ukrainians are right, in that the Americans haven't a clue what modern war between technological peers looks like.

Very good at killing goat herders, however. World's foremost professionals in that field.

That's where those aircraft carrier groups and F-35s come handy. Great target practice, too...

@Bobko
A good explanation, but one that Americans in the know dont really need. The reason all the laws being passed now on residential property ownership in the US is a direct result of the corporate greed of purchasing property and driving up purchasing and rental prices. If Americans dont have a clue about technological warfare, then Ukraine sure doesnt need US weapons. But lets be honest, Russia could never compete with a full scale US dedication to defeting them with conventional weapons. Russia doesnt even have enough bodies for the landfill that could be created if the US was really committed.

@Bratwurst Boy
Thats the thing. The US will likely leave NATO. It serves no purpose other than for the MIC. If a republican or RFK jr gets into the White House, NATO with the US no longer exists. History ladies and gentlemen. The US only becomes fully commited when it is attacked or threatened. Europe and its tribal warfare is not a concern of the vast majority of Americans. The "worlds needs" are not really the needs of Americans. And after fighting everyone elses war for the last 80 years, Americans are tired of doing it, and neglecting its own people. Why is that so hard to understand?

@Novichok

To be honest, by the time July rolled around, and you had started hearing the first whispers of disagreement between the Pentagon and AFU about how the counter-offensive should be conducted... I really started wishing that the Ukrainians would just bend to the will of their masters and do as they are told.

If they had lost dozens of Bradleys and Leopards in a single morning on June 7th, imagine how much they would lose if they kept pushing like the Americans wanted?

That whole 70,000 strong group would've been ground up into mincemeat, and the reputation of Western weapons would have suffered permanently.

Instead the Ukrainians did the West a favor, by throwing their men in instead, and saving the gear for another day.

In the end, this is not a war about territory but about manpower and weapons. As soon as the Ukrainians run dry on men and ammo, Russia will slice through their territory like butter.

Agreed. And that's why I pray the US and Russia will never be in military conflict. A cornered Russia would have no option other than the nukes.

My bet is that the MICC and the rest of them in DC do not weaken Russia to the point where the Euros will feel safe on their own. A little fear of Russia in Europe makes them more agreeable and serves us well.

Really! Hard to believe....but that would really be a Gamechanger....


Probably because the US "isolationists" are not actually a new movement but active since the 1930's...with similiar arguments, and as with WWII it probably needs another global threat to silence them again. Only that the upcoming threat won't be mainly a european one, and in that global conflict NATO is one of the biggest sticks the US will be able to wield.

And NATO membership isn't usually a thing of one government or one party, it usually is a longstanding consentual commitment which can't be so easily destroyed or questioned with elections...so....I believe it when I see it!


pewresearch.org/global/2023/05/10/americans-hold-positive-feelings-toward-nato-and-ukraine-see-russia-as-an-enemy/

...Most Americans have a favorable view of NATO: 62% express a positive opinion, while 35% have a negative opinion of the organization. NATO, which recently welcomed Finland as a member, is consistently viewed in a favorable light by Americans. In 2022, shortly after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, 67% held a favorable view of NATO, the highest percentage measured since Pew Research Center transitioned to online surveys in the U.S. Since last year, positive opinions of NATO have faded slightly, with favorable views dropping 5 percentage points....

NATO is a huge thing to us because it obligates the US to defend every sh*ithole, including Albania.
We should be able to pick and choose - treaty or no treaty. With NATO, Albania = Alabama. Sick...

Well....the US did it with Afghanistan....neither in EU nor NATO! And what a sh'it hole that was, still is!

But right now it's only about Ukraine....and I agree with the USians on that, Europe should step up! No discussion....

That was brilliant, Novi. Pure genius...

Actually, no...The US protects South Korea better than South Karolina. Or Texas.

You are a moron, Novi...

It is not the European argument, a lot of Americans in high positions who understand that stuff would agree with it.
Also, I'm pretty much aware of the American public sentiment, so you can assume I know all that and spare us further lectures.
Also, we are not talking about sentiments and general awareness of the American public. You should know by now that I'm not an egalitarian and don't care what plebs 'think' American, Polish, or European, plebs are plebs. I might consider it if running for office but to give it any credence - nay.

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Yes, I have never claimed otherwise. Why is that even an argument here?
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Now that is stretching and I would say that is BS. Yet again why are we even talking about it? That is not my point.

My point to put it in as simple terms as possible is:
The US committed to the NATO states, and for the last 30 years had it easy when it comes to keeping it in Europe. Times are changing and in this case, states like Estonia or such would be needed, or for that matter (less likely but possible ) Poland. The US would have to make a decision - either commit its forces and fight a war, go with nukes and face Russian nukes, or sell them baltic states down the river and possibly along with all the eastern Europe.

If the US wants to be the global power with allies and the dollar as the world currency they reap enormous profits for the US they can't back out.

If the US wants to bail it can kiss goodbye to the global power and become American power which doesn't necessarily be a bad or a good thing but you could be sure it will be different - but that is not a subject of my post.

I assume that the US wants to keep its position. Hence rather than wage a costly and nasty war paying with Amiercian blood. They can pay Ukrianie to do it now. It doesn't cost that much more than senseless war in Afghanistan or Iran, not even close to what Americans fork out to Israel.

And seems to me Isreal is that tail that shakes the dog and it is the US that does as they are told and still forks out that money,

So, you can kick Ukrinie to the curb but it doesn't make much sense and it will cost you big time later. Simple!

Turkey is a much worse NATO member....I don't trust them at all!

Not really...

Article 5

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

If Serbia attacks Albania tomorrow, the US can send them 500 helmets, and that would qualify as "taking such action as it deems necessary."

Of course, since it's Serbia, America probably would actually go in and bomb it to the smithereens. However, if it was China or Russia that inexplicably attacked Albania, then America can slap some sanctions on Taco Bell franchises in Russia and call it a day.

We call them for-hire wh*ores, bootlicker. Some of them agree that a man can be a woman and that men can get pregnant. Argument from authority is the stupidest way to argue.


Hey, PAK, how do you feel being downgraded to American plebs?

With a regrouped/rebuild german army and Polands military having become Europe's/NATO's pride and joy (in the near future I guess) Washington probably will also look sternly into european direction for some more action!

And it defends Poland more than Portland.