Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 20

@Torq

This is mostly for you, as you can understood this. Century ago, first attempt of ethnocide, and in a result my relatives now have two variants of family name - russian and "ukrainised"...

Fragment below is from Kharkov newspaper named "Communist", April 5, 1925.

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@mafketis


It was your best ever comment on this forum. By my humble opinion.

I remember you mentioned this before. It's a somewhat similar situation to "lituanization" of Polish names in Samogitia.

There's something I don't get though: that a proto-banderist government in Ukraine or a nationalist government in Samogitia in XXI century would do this to their Russian and Polish citizens is not a surprise, but why would Soviet Union - a country that was supposed to be for centralization, planned economy (planned everything really) - help reinforce particular Ukrainian nationalism, instead of pushing towards more unity (i.e. russification)?

And do you remember what happened later? I wrote to you about it.


Well, they changed their mind about it pretty quickly.

I meant crypto-banderist.


And rightly so! Among all particular nationalisms in Soviet republics, few if any were as ruthless and genocide-prone as the Ukrainian one. Unfortunately, it was Polish civilians who paid the highest price.

Here is translation of fragments from a good article about that subject. I'll send you a link to PM.

107 years ago, Vladimir Lenin decided to incorporate Donbas into Ukraine. On March 14, 1918, in a letter to the Extraordinary Commissar of Ukraine Sergo Ordzhonikidze, he called the desire of the inhabitants of the region to join the RSFSR a "harmful caprice". Then the plenum of the Central Committee of the RCP (b) adopted a resolution recognizing Donbass as part of Ukraine. According to historians, Lenin wanted to dilute the peasant population with the Donbass proletariat supporting the Bolsheviks. The territory of the Ukrainian SSR, including Donbass, was subjected to forced Ukrainianization in the 1920s and 1930s. But the inhabitants of the region continued to feel that they were Russian.

Later, the Soviet authorities, at the request of the inhabitants of Donbass, returned to the idea of re-incorporating the region to Soviet Russia, but Lenin declared the need to "re-decide" everything and insisted on the incorporation of Donbass into the Ukrainian SSR. Despite the decision of the Bolshevik leadership and subsequent Ukrainianization, Donbass never became Ukrainian in the ethno-cultural sense. Almost a century later, after the coup d'état in Kiev in 2014, the region's residents rebelled against attempts by Ukrainian nationalists to deprive them of their right to their native language and self-determination. Representatives of the Kiev regime responded by using weapons against the population of Donbas. In order to end the nearly eight-year conflict and save the inhabitants of the region from annihilation, Russia launched a special operation in Ukraine on February 24, 2022.

...

According to historians, one of the fundamental causes of the military conflict, which began in 2014 and is still ongoing, was the ill-considered decisions of the Bolshevik leadership to forcefully incorporate Donbass into Ukraine in 1918-1919.

"Under the pressure of the central Soviet authorities, the Russian movement that existed there was broken. For example, the leadership of the Donetsk-Krivorozhskaya Republic did not want the inclusion of the Donetsk region into the Ukrainian SSR. But the Bolsheviks broke this resistance and, in fact, forcibly incorporated the traditional Russian territories of Kharkov, Yekaterinoslav, Kherson provinces and other regions of Novorossiya into the Ukrainian SSR," Sergey Perevezentsev, professor at the Department of Political Science at Lomonosov Moscow State University and Doctor of Historical Sciences, told earlier in an interview.

The historical relationship between the annexation of Donbass to the Ukrainian SSR and the current crisis was discussed in his address on February 21, 2022 by the Russian president, who called Ukraine a country "named after Vladimir Ilyich Lenin".

I don't think you know what I'm talking about - they went further than just "reversing" Ukrainisation:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization

"Major repression started in 1929-30, when a large group of Ukrainian intelligentsia was arrested and most were executed."

Sounds familiar?

This kind of thing always comes back with a vengeance. A politician, in this case Lenin, thinks that he knows better what's good for people and draws borders with complete and utter disregard to local population, and a hundred years later the problems continue.


I am not a specialist on Soviet history, but if I am not mistaken the most numerous group of victims (famine, purges, Gulag) of Soviet communism were Russians. If they didn't even spare their own, then why would they treat other nationalities differently?

The active phase of Ukrainianization was curtailed only in the late 1930s. So the repressions that occurred at the very peak of Ukrainianization, 10 years before its end, can hardly be considered an attempt of "reversal".

What and how this very "intelligentsia" and Ukrainian nationalists with a communist bias did not divide among themselves, I can't say at once. But apparently something serious was at stake.

And that makes it right?
I'm sure it made a hell lot of difference for people who got the bullet in the back of their head or were sent to the concentration camps in Siberia or Kazakhstan.

I wonder how many of them were ideological predecessors of banderists. Such violent genocidal movement cannot appear out of nowhere.


Did I say that makes it right?

Yes and Russia and Third reich were allies before one attacked another. Not coincidence really.

@Torq, you just implied the "benefits" of those bloody purges here - thus making them "right":


You're disgusting.


And didn't it cross your mind that it was that bloody Ukrainisation "reversal" done by the Soviet Union that contributed to the radicalism of Ukrainian nationalism? As you pointed out yourself - "such violent genocidal movement cannot appear out of nowhere". 🧐


How does it make it "right" though?


Stop lying, it is clearly stated that "Starting from the early 1930s, the Ukrainization policies were abruptly and bloodily reversed."

Poland had non-aggression pact with Third Reich too. Ask Czechs what they think about Poland taking Zaolzie one day after Germany began occupying the Sudetenland. Of course, the situations were not exactly the same, but toutes proportions gardées - as our French friends and students in the use of cutlery say - there is some analogy.


Thank you.


Right. Soviet Union hurt Ukrainians, so they had to slaughter Polish women and children. Makes sense. So that makes banderism right?

See? I can play such stupid games too. I don't, because I'm an adult.


I never said that makes it right.

Yes, the two most genocidal countries on the planet.


It does make sense from the psychological point of view. Such experiences damage nations, make them more radical towards whatever victim they may stumble upon. It's not like Jews did some terrible things to Germans either to "deserve" their fate, right?


Of course not.


I'm not playing any stupid games, you're the one who wrote: "And rightly so!"

I wrote "and rightly so" about stopping reinforcing the particularly vicious Ukrainian nationalism. As I said (a post or two later), I'm not a specialist in Soviet history, so I didn't know that it involved mass executions.

Let me sum it all up:

Russia will win.

They won't.

How do you know that it was "vicious" at that time?


Me neither and earlier I had no idea about both that forceful Soviet Ukrainisation and the bloody Soviet de-Ukrainisation. And now that I know about it - especially about the latter - it gave me more understanding of why Ukrainian nationalism became so radical and why Ukrainians were so willing to cooperate with the Nazis against the Soviets. It doesn't make cooperating with the Nazis right, but I think it's important to know about such things to understand nations and history better.


I already wrote about what that Ukrainisation "reversal" entailed on this forum during my discussion with Velund about the ethnic makeup of the 60th Army that liberated Auschwitz-Birkenau. Did you miss that discussion?

20/20 hindsight.... at the time (until well afte 1939) nazis had support in a lot of the soviet union because, in case anyone forgot, soviet rule was completely terrible... let's remember the holodomor.... anti-Ukrainians (russian and otherwise) don't care but the 1920s-30s-40s were absolutely brutal in this part of the world beyond anything modern minds can really take in.


What government did he set policy for again? I keep forgetting.... where was he during the massacres?

From the very fact that they forced ethnic Russians to change names and surnames into Ukrainian ones. I'm quite sure that Nikolai Ivanov wasn't happy to be made Mykola Ivanenko. It's the same thing that Samogitian nationalists did to Polish names.


Not only against the Soviets but also, or even more, against Poles and Jews.


Apparently. Or maybe I forgot - I'm not a spring chicken anymore.


Stop playing stupid games, Maf.

They are.

How is it stupid?

russian propaganda turned a minor political figure into a mass killer on par with Hitler.... why fall for such primitive tactics when the reality doesn't back it up?

Are you bothered by Serbs having statues to Prinzip? Are you bothered by russians rehabilitation and continued veneration of Stalin?

You mean the guy that saved the Soviet Union from Germany?

That was an official Soviet policy. Ukrainians didn't have an independent country back then, in case you forgot o_O


Poland was no angel either - it was also suppressing the Ukrainian independence movement. As for Jews - you're talking to someone who was born and grew up in the "pogrom city".

If it is stated in Wokepedia - it may mean anything (totally).... Especially if last "corrections" to article was made by ukrainian CIPSO "experts"...


My grandfather had to move to Moscow region to be able to change family back. It was regional laws/regulations that don't allow him to do so while he was in Krivy Rih.

Sure, because RuSSian history books and media are soooo much better and objective, haha, please, Velund, stop :D


Invented by the bolsheviks/Soviets in Moscow. Ukrainisation wasn't unique - it was just a part of a wider policy of "Korenizatsiia" (an indigenization policy) - which was Stalin's idea, apparently:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiia

Paulina, you are as much an expert in the peculiarities of life in Malorossiya in the early 20th century as you are in the preliminary caresses before copulation of Martian bugs. If you want to keep making people laugh, keep referring to Wokepedia.

@Velund, what's the problem? Are you going to claim now that Korenizatsiia didn't happen or that Stalin didn't have anything to do with it?? :D


You were such an "expert" on it yourself that during our previous discussion you convenietly failed to mention the complete reversal of the Soviet Ukrainisation. So, you either weren't taught the real history of the Soviet Union or you're full of sh1t.

Poles occupied Zaolzie - which was an industrialized area - due to the collapse of Czechoslovakia, so that it would not fall into German hands and increase the military potential of Germany. We didn't do it just out of spite or for retaliation.

Zaolzie was previously Polish (called Śląsk Cieszyński), but when Poland had to defend on the east from bolsheviks, Czechs pushed for division of the region, as Poland was obviously preoccupied with a war. After territories were annexed, Czechs had anti-Polish politics (removal of Polish schools etc) to remove the Polish culture. But main reason why it was retaken by Poles is to deny it to Germans. It didn't last long and do much in the grand scheme of things though