Poland's aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 24

You are an idiot; he has different priorities, and none is to fulfill your wishes.
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I think you got it wrong. I think regarding Ukraine, they agreed. I guess Putin went further with his demands.
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Come Torq, don't upset me. It means you still don't understand politics.

@Torq
Trump never wrote that letter moron.


Bvllshit. If the two countries at war decide to make a deal, the US is not bound by terms that are made mute and irrelevant. Or maybe Germany agreed to not invade Russia at some point? Treaties are bvllshit if the parties directly involved in a war are not involved in any declaration.

Because that's what he says and he is well known for never have lied in the past, right? Are you really THAT retarded?


Oh, so the declaration was revoked by the American government? Or are you, once again, talking right out of the depths of your arse.

I don't understand kurewstwo and I hope I never will. Ukraine doesn't agree to any territorial concessions, and they have a legally binding American government's declaration to support their stance. Simple as that.

Either it's part of a genius masterplan or it's a failure by Trup and his team. There is no evidence of a masterplan.


This is something that cannot be ignored.

You want a useless guarantee, I can email you one ... plus this:

US guarantees come with many coffins.

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The US operates like a drug lord, with countries it supports acting as its dealers. The US must back these dealers, or they might turn to alternatives like the BRICS system, which could undermine the dollar. If the dollar loses its status as the world's reserve currency, the US would face bankruptcy faster than Argentina.

Unbelievably stupid Americans believe the US is doing favors for countries like Poland or Ukraine by offering them support. In reality, it's a mutually beneficial arrangement. If the US stops supporting its dealers, the entire system collapses under its own weight / debt.

...and so be it...sooner or later, this fake, debt-based pile of crap has to collapse...

So what's the problem? Nobody died in Argentina...The USSR collapsed and life went on...

Life will go on, but those in power will try to cling to it as long as possible. The only big problem is that they would start the last war to try to revive the corpse, but we all have to die anyway.

@Torq
You really are a fvcking moron. The US, once Russia and Ukraine make a deal, is not bound by any statement. The current president can in fact make a resolution to reverse that order. You know like Trump reversed so many of Bidens bvllshit orders.

@Ron2
Lets remember big dog that the Federal Reserve is a private entity at its basic levels. Twelve regional reserve banks with member banks owning stock, controled by a government entity. Member banks receive a dividend for owning stock in the regional reserves. I would love to see the whole system torn down, say FO to China and anyone else owed money. Close the borders completely, and then lets see how long everyone else survives without the US. If the dollar loses its status as the worlds reserve currency, the western world as we all know it comes to an end. But that would please the globalists so anything can happen if more of those morons get into positions of authority.

The US government pays a lot of interest to private banks through the Fed. How stupid is that? It could create its own money without interest.

This system will eventually collapse, but the parasites will resist to the point of world destruction.

@Torq

What you are referring to is a declaration of policy, but it is not binding law. It can change.


This is an obvious fact of history. I may not like it, but it is reality.

The question now is how to deal with this reality.

What is the probability of Ukraine being able to drive Russia back to its pre-2016 border? Seems a very low probability. To me, the only way for that to happen is direct military intervention of Europe and/or America. I, and vast majority of USians, vehemently oppose that.

So, what to do? Sure, we can arm Ukes to their gills. Problem is Uke has been suffering from lack of manpower for over a year. Arming them to the gills offers no guarantees, except prolonging the meatgrinder.

I don't see a fully satisfactory end to this.

To be able to survive completely on her own is an American pipe dream. Who finances your country's crazy consumption? China wouldn't sell you a single plastic rubber duck if your currency is worthless. Rare earths and other essential resources? Nope.

As always, Poland is just a useful tool for the EU:

"On Monday evening, President Donald Trump of the United States and President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine are scheduled to meet in Washington, followed by broader talks with European leaders, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen, and NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte. However, Poland will not be represented at the negotiating table, as neither President Nawrocki, Prime Minister Tusk, nor Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Radosław Sikorski are traveling to the US capital."

Oh... I see. Was Budapest Memorandum also just a declaration, not binding law?

Whoredom... whoredom everywhere...

This is all so tiresome.

The US won't lift a finger, and Ukraine can take back its territory if it can. Simple.

Completely two different things. The BM was an agreement between nations. The Declaration was an internal American policy statement-not law-binding or an agreement with any other party.

OK, and is this agreement still binding? Or can we just sh*t on it and say that...

We have to reorient ourselves fast in the changing world. There is no time for the usual BS and those pathetic clowns we have now.

The BM is a binding agreement and Russia broke it. And, how to deal with Russia breaking it is the question presently being dealt with.

I know, Iron. I know...

It's just so bloody difficult to accept that it happens and that all it took was a bald KGB gold toilet sh*tter and the entire legal order of the Free World collapses just like that.

F*ck... if Poland had half... no, even a quarter of American power, we would f*ck up Russia so bad that they would sit quietly on their asses, in their 17 million square kilometres, for the next century.


Oh, we can see that.

It is not.

It was a MEMORANDUM! A political commitment - not a TREATY.

In international law, treaties are binding under the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties if they meet formal requirements (ratification, registration, etc.). The Budapest Memorandum did not go through those processes.

The US Congress never saw the Budapest Memorandum. It was never registered in the Duma, not even for 5 minutes.

The Budapest Memorandum is toilet paper to wipe your butt with - that's about the extent of its utility.


I see a fairly big hole in this argument.

What if by continuing to fight on without US support, Ukraine ends up losing a further 5-10-15% of its territory?

Is that better or worse, than fixing your losses at 20%? Which is what I believe is the essence of Trump's argument. In fact, today, Trump reposted a tweet that argued exactly that (attaching below).

It is clear to me that there are "grades" of surrender.

Is it pleasant to give up 20% of your territory? Of course not! Is it better than giving up 35%? Of course it is.

All Trump is asking Zelensky to do, is to be goddamn realistic for at least five minutes. The guy is such a numbskull, that it takes repeated attempts before he understands something.

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P.S. AntV - I responded to your message

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Why is it in the United Nations Treaty Collection website then?

treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb


Thank you. We will keep that in mind in the future about documents that Russia signs.


I was waiting for you to reach 40% because that's my favourite percentage.

But jokes aside, Ukraine will not give up any of her territory. They will continue fighting and I believe Europe will join the fight eventually. There are still men of honour in this world.

@Bobko

Notice I said it was a binding agreement, not a binding law.

No... he's asking Zelenskyy to enter a precious fairyland in which russia can be trusted...

@mafketis

Is it any more a fairyland than the European belief Ukraine can drive Russia out of all of Ukraine?

... and Putin has demanded that Ukraine withdraw from not just the territories Russia currently controls, but also those that are still under Ukrainian authority - effectively compelling Kyiv to cede additional, strategically vital land beyond the occupation line, abandon the current fortifications and withdraw into the open steppe.

It would be a suicide if Zelensky agreed to that.


Ukraine alone cannot do that. That's why Europe should enter this war. We observed this whoredom from sidelines for far too long. It is time for action. America can join us or f*ck off, I don't care.

Ohhh... favorite weapon of Ukrainian forum users.

You are now entering deep into the weeds of this debate, haha!

If you open the link carefully, you'll notice:

1) It is described as a "Memorandum" (not a "Treaty" or "Convention").

2) It is filed in the Treaty Series but under the subcategory of "other agreements."

3) This reflects its status as a political commitment, not a ratified treaty under the Vienna Convention.

How the UNTC works, is it accepts anything member nations submit. Its inclusion does not mean that the UN or international law, recognizes it as a treaty with binding force, only that it is an "international instrument" lodged with the Secretariat.


In what sense? De Jure? They can knock themselves out.

The entire West never recognized the annexations of the Baltic states de jure. This didn't stop them from building pipelines in the Soviet Union, or shipping millions of tons of grain to us, or having fancy back-slapping summits.

If the Soviet Union did not fall apart, the Baltics would continue for another hundred years as solid constituent republics.

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In reality - Ukraine is giving up territory every day.

That would certainly change things.

OK, I get it - being listed there does not automatically give BM a treaty status, but still the Memorandum is politically hugely important as a symbol of how Ukraine gave up the world's third-largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for promises that were not kept.

In other words, for bureaucratic nitpickers and pencil pushers BM may not be legally binding but for men of honour it is binding. We reject whoredom and choose honour. I know that Russia counted on everyone choosing whoredom. Unfortunately (for Russia), some of us are still not willing to get on all fours in front of your gold toilet sh*tters. That's life.


I know. That's why I said it's time for Europe to enter this war.