Coronavirus in Poland

On a contrary. Because of it many patients with serious illness don't get a treatment on time. And many hospitals are underutilised because they are keeping a dozen of "coronavirus" patients in a hospital which could house hundreds of patients during normal times. Not to mention that because of hysteria many are afraid to go to hospital to get a treatment for their illness because they're afraid they may get infected with a "deadly virus".

The fact is is that coronavirus is swallowing more lives of heart disease and stroke patients than those infected by Chinese flu. Even if we count those 80+ yo people who died of age related organ failures but were counted as victims of "coronavirus".

That's simply not true. The lockdown in most countries, with its attendant socio-economic knock-on, isn't just some caprice to annoy the faint-hearted. It's based on actual projections by experts, taking into full consideration the effects on public life and the cold hard fact that no county has a medical system that can cope with significant additional strain, particularly when that's squared by lack of overspill facilities and staffing backfill.

Sweden: population 10 mil.

No lockdown. No quarantine. No panic. Business as usual

Results:

Confirmed
18,926
Recovered
1,005
Deaths
2,274

Belgium: population 11 mil.

Lockdown and quarantine.

Results:

Confirmed
46,687
Recovered
10,878
Deaths
7,207

April 27th 2020

And no large conurbations, plus an affluent society with few extended families, who also strictly practise social-distancing. And, of course, socialised health care and low poverty rates....

And double the death rate per million of neighbouring Finland.

@jon357

And one could argue natural selection too. My friends grandmother admitted to hospital yesterday for kidney issue. No problem getting treatment or getting into hospital. The system is not being extremely pressured. In part due to early closure of everything. But now, its overkill. Numbers simply dont support this panic or continued restrictions.

Thatr happens anyway, regardless of the current highly dangerous pandemic.


A member of my family died of Covid-19. Her husband was ventilated but survived and remains in hospital.


The actual experts would (and do) disagree strongly with that statement.

@jon357

You mean those same experts that predicted bird flu, sars and others would kill millions? Yes, its dangerous. No, its not the plague and its not the mass killer some would like to say it is. My sister an ER Doc in NYC even says, that 99% of patients treated had underlying conditions, or were much older. I take her first hand actually treating people point of view before I take a predictive model point of view, when predictive models never end up being accurate.

The people who know what they're talking about; and as we can all see, the pandemic is here...

As mentioned earlier, the lockdown isn't someone's caprice...

:-)

I'm glad that you've dropped a totalitarian approach and started to view the "pandemics" by local and national specifics. It's time to take a closer look at Poland.

Biedronka, a largest supermarket chain in Poland. 3000 shops, 70 000 employees. Open thoughout the whole "pandemics". Millions of people went in and out during the "pandemics" of deadly virus that will kill us all unless we wear dustmasks :-)

Results: a whole 2 cases of a shop clerks with coronavirus confirmed by the end of April 2020...

Don't be obtuse. This is serious...


Has enforced social distancing, strict limits to the numbers allowed in, obligatory hand sanitisation on entry and obligatory gloves. Their staff also had to wear masks long before it was compulsory.

Have you been in (or even near) a Biedronka since the lockdown? No, you are not in Poland.

No, it's not.


I've been to Tesco, Sainsburys, Lidl many times since "quarantine" kicked in without wearing dustmask and rubber gloves and I'm still alive and well.

I also have to admit that I've commited countless crimes: I've been cycling and jogging in public places like streets and parks. More than that, I've also visited friends and none of us was dressed in a biohazard suit...

A lot of that's being loosened... no more gloves (there were awful and I could never get them on right) and there are no more lines to get in. The sanitizer's still there (and I liberally use it going and out...

Where are you getting your information from...newspapers/TV or what....not sure if this is more generalisation than fact....are you speaking from an experts point of view or simply putting forward your opinion...

I'm getting some of a first hand info from my friends and family in Poland. And some info and photos, which often denies the official mass-media version of the story, are being shared with me on twitter by locals from Poland.

Other than that an analysis of a publicly available data, statistics and generally using my own brain instead of repeating after mass media and coronavirus apostles. If 'deadly pandemics' was a real threat I'd admit it and defend some of the counter-measures but it's a hoax. To be clear: I'm not denying the existence of "coronavirus" but its mortality rates and a general impact on a health of Polish society.

So in fact second hand.


So random stuff from unaccountable sources.


Oh dear...

If info and statistics pulled from World Health Organization and pzh.gov.pl, which I shared on this thread, are random and unacountable then yes. In that case I should rely on prophecies of a coronavirus apostles ;-)

And yes, on many ocassions I trust a piece of information shared by a member of my family or a photo taken by a local more than an official version presented on onet.pl

Maybe I should put it ona website so it will start being legit. It will only take few afternoons to complete :-)

No, again you're trying to be obtuse. But hey, twitter...


Worth listening to (over twitter and your second hand accounts), for a host of sound reasons...

Sure, since I remember they've predicted mass pandemics of swine flu [2009], bird flu [2013], ebola virus [2014] and many more which I don't even feel like counting.

And of course all of them were about to "kill us all" unless. No wonder they want to sound more reasonable this time.

Still, I'm using their public data for drawing my own own conclussions.

For very good reasons; virologists and public health doctors knew a big pandemic was coming. It was only a matter of time, and now it's here.


Devastate society and the economy unless appropriate measures were taken; which they reluctantly were...

Hahah, so I predict the end of the world. I don't know exactly when it will happen but I'm sure it's only a matter of time :-D

Not the end of the world; just a major once in a century pandemic that the world reluctantly has to address on the basis of the best advice public health doctors and strategic planners can provide...


I suspect you haven't lost any family members to it. I have...

Im treating it as a mini vacation. I have completed most of my outdoor projects and have my backyard is ready for summer. This usually is doesnt happen until end of May:)


Im sorry about your loss.

I still maintain this is all the commie Chinese governments fault. They could have contained 95% of this virus but chose to let it spread whilst they scooped up the worlds supply of PPE equipment.

Europe should bomb Hong Kong in retaliation. lol

Hey, Hong Kong is fighting against the commie government, bomb some wet markets instead. lol

Me too, plus some boring as anything translation work; an academic book. U'll be glad when I can finally travel again, back to work.


Thanks.


They're opaque and hate to lose face; they also plan ahead on a huge scale, not decades but centuries.

Bill Gates sat down (in his $43 million dollar home) with Ellen DeGeneres over the internet last week to discuss the coronavirus pandemic and to tell the world that life will not get back to normal until 7 billion healthy people have taken his soon to be invented vaccine.

This is the same guy that wants to cut the worlds population to lower the green house effect C.O.2.
Anyone here want to be first in line for his vaccine ?

@Spike31

Thinking for yourself. My choice as well. Math is math. The numbers, now that we are nearing two months of quarantine, no longer support the measures in place. Any monkey can see, even in Spain, Italy and France that things are quite under control. NYC, Detroit and other "hotbeds" also under control.

Pretty simple to socially distance for a while to stop or ease transmission. Places like the coal mines where it cant be practiced, and care homes, are the clusters that are causing numbers to not drop quicker in Poland. 2 coal mines temporarily closed yesterday because of clusters of infection.

Its these places where efforts should be concentrated, not on the general public. With the exception of public transportation I guess.

Meanwhile 6 more restaurants went up for sale in last 24 hours in Krakow. Using math again, estimating restaurants will begin to reopen in July probably, there wont be much left in this industry that were small and family operations. Even seeing a few smaller family owned food and alcohol stores for sale now. Devastating is what this is to small business.

Kids are taking it really hard in Poland in general. I'm in daily contact with them via remote learning tools, and it's very obvious that some kids are struggling. I have pastoral care duties as part of my work, and I'm trying to reach out to them - but there's not much you can do remotely.

I don't know why they don't simply send kids on summer holiday now.

There will never be peer reviewed study that proves lockdowns work - there are too many similar results in countries with no lockdowns or small lockdowns - Sweden, Japan, Belarus etc. states where people have been to the beach like Florida have the same outcomes as hard lockdown states. It was supposed to rip through 3rd world slums but hasn't happened so far.

So scientists and eventually historians will be arguing about it in 100 years time. Politicians and scientists who invested so much of their reputations in wrecking the economy won't admit they might have been wrong.

I agree that some social distancing measures probably worked - cancelling sports, public transport etc but after that I will take some convincing that the measures will ever outweigh the devastation. It will be hard to show an increase in total death rates.

Economists can measure effects more quickly - it starts at 30 million unemployed (100x the number of people who died from that), increases in Public debt that will take years to pay off, following will come deep cuts to public services that will kill many more. Massive once healthy companies will stop paying taxes and instead need public bail out. Alcoholism and drug use will increase as will the psychological effects of hard working people seeing their business wiped out from government edicts, destruction of democracy, a gap in the birth rate etc.

It's shaping up to be similar to dealing with the TB issue of the early twentieth century. If you read the social history of the time, it was highly contagious and society simply had to live with it. You come across references to it all the time if you're a fan of vintage literature or ephemera. I recall seeing ads for shows in theatres or cinemas with the byline 'this establishment is thoroughly disinfected' etc. When you visited a TB patient, you had to keep a physical distance and medical staff caring for them wore masks. TB cases were 'forbidden all public assemblies' and so on.

At this stage, what we need is to deal with the clusters, get organized with quarantine/Covid-19 only hopsitals like the TB sanatoria of old and encourage ongoing responsible behaviour by citizens, but we have to return to some semblance of normality soon. I don't agree with masks outdoors and I've noticed that since people have been wearing them, social distancing has gone out the window. Learning to keep your distance from others is more helpful in the long run and masks only in overcrowded places like buses and trams. But even then, there is still limited evidence as to how useful non-surgical, ill-fitting masks are.