Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

all Slavs should help to Ukraine and to all Slavs there. What we need is military intervention of unified Slavic security forces

How are you dare to extrapolate behaviour of part of Ukrainians for all Ukrainians???
Interesting that some jewish organisations expressed an outrage too, even so Poroshenko (who signed decision to proclaim Bandera hero of Ukraine) is a jewish as well. However modern Ukrainian government heavily depends on Western Ukrainian nationalists and anti-Russian rhetorics and they urgently need to please Weastern Ukrainians and create at least some heroes. Bandera wasn't citizen of Ukraine, but is regarded as a person who fought for creation of "Ukrainian state". It is commonly claimed that around 60.000 Poles, 60.000 of Ukrainians 50.000 of Soviet Soldiers and tens of thousands of people of other nationalities became victims of UPA. They fought against German Nazies as well. So, this situation resembled rather ''total war'' scenario rather than Polish massacre only. People of different ethnicities served in UPA ranks. It's claimed there were even jews and ethnical Russians. Formally they have no relation to modern Ukrainian state as they never been its citisens and were not born in Ukraine, so their statut in modern Ukraine is a pure abstraction anyways... But isn't Pilsudski honored in Poland? And he waged dubious war on newly formed Ukrainian republics...

lie


lie


lie


he didnt went rampage,murdering qater of millions of civilians with axes.
spare yourself those banderist apologetic propaganda,


Josef Mengele was great physician depending on ones perspective...please ,and dont compare AK to UPA


UPA cult its Todays problem in Ukraine not yesterdays


does germany have president who glorify Hitler?


and then he goes and spread apologetic ,UPA glorifying propaganda...lol

Some users look mentaly inadequate...

Germany's atrocities were exceeded only by those of Soviet Russia, and it is to Germany's credit that they have totally broken with their horrific Nazi past. Unlike Putin's Russia! Thr UPA unleashed a reign of terror in the barbaric east and south Slav tradition -- decapitations, impaling heads on poles, killing with axes and scythes, burning people alive, etc. My maternal grandfather's relatives were amongst the victims. But Ukrainians are a nation in statu nascendi -- without a tradition of statehood, always under somebody else's boot. The UPA did not go on a rampage for the fun of it but to lay the groundwork for a future Ukrainian state. Their methods cannot be condoned but their goal was understandable. Every nation deserves its own country. The world is not ideal, history is not fair, But are we to back Putin against Ukraine because they have declared some controversial figure a hero?

Or provocateurs...

one shouldn't build tradition on genocides.there is more in ukraines history than bandera


nope..only in sick mind,one can assume that nation can only be build by murdering minorities.


so you say,that was the only way to create Ukraine?you are already speak like Bandera.


huh?if one glorify genocides and at same time bombing russian minorities civilians,Putin has already more that fokin obligation to interfere.
are you listening to yourself?ffs?

Germany's atrocities were exceeded only by those of Soviet Russia, and it is to Germany's credit that they have totally broken with their horrific Nazi past. Unlike Putin's Russia! Thr UPA unleashed a reign of terror in the barbaric east and south Slav tradition -- decapitations, impaling heads on poles, killing with axes and scythes, burning people alive, etc. My maternal grandfather's relatives were amongst the victims. But Ukrainians are a nation in statu nascendi -- without a tradition of statehood, always under somebody else's boot. The UPA did not go on a rampage for the fun of it but to lay the groundwork for a future Ukrainian state. Their methods cannot be condoned but their goal was understandable. Every nation deserves its own country. The world is not ideal, history is not fair, But are we to back Putin against Ukraine because they have declared some controversial figure a hero?

This is my main problem with PIS people. Their outlook on foreign affairs is completely bananas (the rest of their policies are okay I guess).

Poland had far more casualties and suffered more from Nazi Germany than from Soviet Union. Germany apologized and we are friends with Germany.
The Russians also apologized for their deeds but some people choose to ignore this. Today we are almost at war with Russia because of American influence. (It is America today on the world stage which is the most aggressive country in the world).

Of course groups of people deserve their own nations but the Ukrainian leadership (Poroshenko and others) actually looks up to a criminal and a butcher of Poles (Bandera). Why should Poland be friendly with the chocolate king leader in this case?

Ukraine should choose a less aggressive leader and then Poland should shake hands with both Russia and Ukraine and ALL the other neighbours.
It is in European and especially Poles interest to be friendly with all neighbours.

And before you accuse me, I am not a Kremlin agent or Communist sympathizer
Thats it from me.

Could you provide me any citation of any German chancellor in which he/she apologized particularly to the Poles?

Aug 02, 1994. WARSAW
German President Roman Herzog, attending memorial services here marking the 50th anniversary of the Warsaw Uprising, issued an extraordinary public apology for the suffering Germany caused Poland in World War II.

Thanks. But it would be interesting to read an exact citation from his speech. And also 20 years passed since than. No mention of the same things happened for all this time?

And... If you need CHANCELLOR - I can remember that Willi Brandt knelt in front of the monument built to the memory of Poles fallen as victims of the Nazis sometime in beginning of 1970's...


At least it was done.

Can anyone remember me about any apologies from Ukrainian officials concerning Volyn massacre?

A good question which any Pole would carefully avoid. You are definitely not a Pole. So, could you explain, why any Ukrainian officials suppose to appologize for Volyn massacre???

Just few facts...

- In 2010, Yushchenko did grant Stepan Bandera, the leader of OUN the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.

- A couple of months ago, group of Polish citizens who planned to pay tribute to the victims of the Volyn massacre could not get into the territory of Ukraine, Ukrainian border guards and SBU rudely refused Poles in the entrance, subjecting them to humiliation on a national basis.

mateuszpiskorski.blog.onet.pl/2015/02/28/chcieli-uczcic-ofiary-rzezi-wolynskiej-nie-wpuszczono-ich-na-ukraine/

- Just few days ago, Poroshenko signed the law that declared OUN and UPA as "freedom fighters" and granted social benefits to surviving participants.

This facts are different from the question you asked earlier.
Also a fact that former president Yanukovich reversed hero statut of Bandera.


And former Vermacht soldiers receive their veteran payments and military pensions in Germany.

Do you still need an answer?


And later was forced to flee, saving their life...

Yes, please.

Don't force me to be impolite, please...

No problem I'le try to cope with it. Go ahead..

I triеd to formulate an answer without obscene words, but not succeeded. It looks too pale.

Declaring Bandera, Shukhevich and their accomplices as national heroes is virtually the same as a recognition of their ideology and actions as correct and appropriate. And it was done on a top state officials level.

Now it require much more than a simple apologies... But what we see instead? Poroshenko come to Warsaw to beg for money... Among other, to fund killing more civilians in Donbass and provide extra benefits to those who killed Polish and Russian womans and kids in Volyn and Galicia in the past.

A completely different issue.


Again: former Vermacht soldiers receive their veteran payments and military pensions in Germany. Anyways, only gist of them remained in Ukraine.


Depends on which actions. I'm not sure there is consensus in Ukrainian society on this subject and that majority of Ukrainians would demand it. Government try to please some part of society, those whom they rely on... They claim they fought for creation of independent Ukrainian state. But that's a fact, at least partially...

Slavs, my sisters and brothers. Do not mistake. Ukraine is child of Mother Slavia. Love Ukraine, help her get rid of Nazi menace, pro-germanic heretics. Let Ukrainians have their Ukrainian land free. Love Ukraine as you love your Slavic souls.

In 2003, on the 60th anniversary of the massacres of Poles in Volhynia and Eastern Galicia, Presidents Aleksander Kwaśniewski of Poland and Leonid Kuchma of Ukraine unveiled a monument in Pavlivka commemorating the event. Both presidents called for forgiveness and reconciliation, with Kuchma saying "In this place where Polish victims rest, on behalf of all Ukrainians who want peace and justice, I wish to express my deep sympathy to all the wronged Poles, all those who suffered as a result of this disaster. We issue a strong condemnation of the violence committed against the Polish civilian population."

Cropped 100+ words

Source en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

it reminds me.

Destabilizing Ukraine, EU and NATO leading powers actually attacked Poland, to destroy Polish `illusions` about resurrection of Poland`s old glory, what Russia accepted allowing existence of Ukraine after dissolution of Soviet Union, for sure, thru preservation of fragile balance in the region.



Poland's President Bronislaw Komorowski and his Ukrainian counterpart Viktor Yanukovych, 2012, final talks about Ukrainian joining to Visegrad Group, in situation when even combined Polish-Ukrainian military force was created POLUKRBAT - then all collapsed

Back in 2008 to 2012 Ukraine and Serbia were on the verge of becoming members of Visegrad Group, in situation when Poland wanted Visegrad to be more independent from NATO. Since then, Polish president Lech Kaczinsky tragically died, Poland abandoned dreams to separate Visegrad from NATO, Serbia facing territorial partition and political pressure, while is Ukraine destabilized and pushed in bloody Civil War. Today, Poland, Ukraine and Serbia, all goes in different kind of future and again, in the same- EU, to serve to same masters.

In that 2012, Poland was becoming real center for all countries from Baltic to Balkan. i don`t know for you people but, i didn`t forget all those discussions on this very forum about POLUKRBAT- joint Polish-Ukrainian military missions, joint protests of young Poles, Ukrainians, Slovaks and Czechs in support to Serbs, new power and increasing role of Visegrad Group, Poland had good relations with Hungary. Many here on this forum started to have dreams about new influence of Poland in old realm of Commonwealth (i was truly rejoicing on those themes) and, then suddenly EU and NATO forcible expansion cut everything. Poland is now more then ever dependent on west of Europe and USA, only Poland`s dream is EU and NATO, ghost of Silesian question is in the air. What we see is that EU and NATO powers put Poland down, to kneel.

Merged: Poland snubs Poroshenko - Russia paper claims

The official Russian government daily "Rossiyskaya Gazeta" claims that Duda's failure to meet Poroshenko was a sign that Poland is more interested in Brussels than Kyiv. It contends that the Polish cold shoulder resulted from the "heroization of Stepan Bandera" whom Poroshenko has proclaimed a hero of Ukraine. To most Poles Bandera's name symbolizes a bloody rampage by Ukrainian nationalists who slaughtered up to 100,000 Poles during the Second World War in what until the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact had been SE Poland.

Neutral sorces typically claim 60.000.


With majority ethnic Ukrainian population who proclaimed an independent Ukrainian state but were crushed by Poland.

With all the war, slaughter, atrocity, Holocaust, etc. figures no-one will ever know for sure. In all cases there were hordes of missing and unaccounted for. Also, many died of wounds in the aftermath. Are they to be counted?

cool VICE documentary

"Russian President Vladimir Putin insists - insists! - that he is definitely not invading Ukraine. The US and others say that, in fact, Russia has been sending military combat units into eastern Ukraine since August, where they are supporting pro-Russia rebels in the war against Ukraine government forces.

But Vice News's Simon Ostrovsky, in a new report, tracks the social media postings of a Russian soldier to prove that Putin is lying and that Russia is in fact at war in Ukraine. In the above video, Ostrovsky retraces the steps of a Russian soldier named Bato Dambaev, who posted highly incriminating selfies all along his journey from his home in Russia's far east to a Russian military encampment near the Ukrainian border to a checkpoint within eastern Ukraine along the front lines of the war."

youtube.com/watch?t=408&v=2zssIFN2mso

I like Vice News for their ability to look at the conflict objectively. Yes, perhaps Ostrovsky sometimes has the tendency to take the side of the Ukrainians (who could blame him after being kidnapped by the separatists and held for a few days) but in general they do good work.

However, their latest video in which they retrace the steps of the Russian soldier has to be one of the best videos of the "Russian Roulette" series.

better than BBC for sure but i wouldn't call them objective..some stuff they got was good ,some horribly biased.
only objective source is social media reports from people involved,like soldiers talking stories on military forums ,civilian interviews from conflict area,videos of events happening ,some broadcasted live. ect.