Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Always at the expense of others; hence their illegal invasion of Ukraine.


Not in the opinion of Poland and its people who choose to look West. Resolutely even.


That is pure paranoia. When Russia and the Putinists undermine democracy at every opportunity, to the point of an invasion, it is necessary for free and friendly countries to support the people of the Ukraine.

Perhaps you'd prefer that Poland didn't give aid money or build up mutual trade links.

If Anglos wants to provoke Russia, they should be left alone with Russians.

Judging by all political (obvious and less obvious) signals from Russia it is clear that Russians wants to talk to Poland and Poles. Also, i can tell you as a Serbian (who often enters in conversation with Poles and Russians; tourists and business people) that Russians in themselves don`t have even idea of aggression on Poles. In fact, Russians love Poles. That is my absolute general conclusion.

i am sure that we live in time that is perfect for solving historical antagonisms between Poles and Russians. Russians won`t complicate to Poles on their way to form Intermarium. Expect much bigger opposition on the west of Europe

Given your post, I'm sure you and I have more in common than you think ;)


Some would say the West invaded first (Maidan).
If you don't like illegal invasions, where were you when Americans invaded Iraq and Afghanistan? That was illegal too.
And how about NATO bombing Libya? I'm not sure, but I think UN didn't allow it, did it?


As I always say: humans like things that bright. Even tho those things might be empty inside. Capitalism is all about things that bright. It gives people the feeling everything is nice and easy to get. But it's just an illusion.

Again, to me, Russia doesn't give a heck about Poland. You can relax.


It would be if I had invented it. But it's been proven, and they've recognised it.
The CIA and other agencies have been secretly influencing foreign countries politics for decades. This is not what I call democracy. But if that's fine with you, then you're not better than that Putin you despise.


I wish Poland would try to negotiate for peace, not for more war against 'evil Russia'.


The Visegrad group resembles it, in a way, don't you think? ;)

Russia wouldn't physically attack those countries. Cyberwarfare on the other hand...


It appears to have been just that. Ukraine was flying around all sorts of stuff knowing that the rebel forces couldn't hit them - and obviously Russia borrowed some equipment to show Ukraine that they weren't invincible in the sky. Someone screwed up. It happens. The Americans did the same with that Iran Air flight, didn't they?

Sure, but again... what for? ;)

America is and has always been the world's arsenal of democracy. Time and again, they have had to bail the Europeans out of the wars they got mired down in. America has also tried to share democracy with backward and clueless Third World countries. Instead of showing some gratitude and trying to cooperate, the European know-alls prefer to go about America-bashing. When Poland joined Operation Iraqi Freedom, Western Europe called them "Ameica's Trojan jackass". There are some on PF who also specialise in thinking up abusive anti-American rhetoric.

P3, I consider you as a smart person. But you're being (too) American here. Are we supposed to laugh at your last post, seriously?

America has been more killing and destroying than saving, let's be honest. Come on. Stop reading the NYT or the WP, they're often too aligned with your government.

Just answer that question, please: why so many people in the world hate America, especially the people that have been 'saved' by America?
And don't tell me they're jealous. Enough laughing for today.

A very genuine protest.


Where should I be? Where were you?


Nope. Poland resolutely looks west and is rightly wary of Russia.


And the Russians don't? At least the West do so with the broad aim of promoting democracy.


Resembled.

I was criticizing them, as I am now ;)


But Poland is not the West. Poland can look whatever it wants. It could look North or South as well.
It seems Poland has always been between the East and the West. Its culture has been influenced by both.
Poland's geographical position used to be a big problem. Now it could be a great advantage. If only its leaders wanted to make a good use of it.


They very probably have tried too, but it's not comparable. You can't compare the billions of dollars 'invested' by the US gov, the CIA, and other 'services' in 'foreign politics' with what the USSR/Russia have invested. Don't overestimate the USSR/Russia. That's what the US did during the Cold War. Probably in their own interests anyway.


I'm about to lose hope, Jon. Please, name one country where the West did promote 'democracy' AND succeed.
You don't want to understand that world leaders don't give a heck about democracy. (By 'world leaders', I don't really mean presidents. Not only)

Democracy is for the people (from the Greek demos), not for the elite. People's aspirations (like democracy) have always been a pain in the .. for the powerful.

Ever heard of this: States have no principles, only interests. ?
In short: making war to promote democracy = myth.

@Polson

a good book about American 'democracy' is the Untold History of the US. it tells the story of how America brought its "great democracy" to many nations. how many people and nations suffered because of American "exceptionalism"

and here is a nice summary of American democracy being spread around (how many tens of millions people were murdered for this democracy):
countercurrents.org/lucas240407.htm

must be that these days EU looks quite idiotic and moronic to Ukrainians. Before all this finish they could welcome Russians as true liberators.

Imagine that development of situation.

I'll play the Jew and answer your question with another question. Why does much of the world admire and emulate America's cheap and tacky commercialised popculture? They say emulation is the highest form of praise. Why are they so enamoured of Hollywood, fast-food joints, bourbon, Coca-Cola, American brand ciggies and numerous other American products and inventions? And why did Europe soeagerly accept Marshall Plan assistance? Only the Soviet-bloc countries were forced by Uncle Joe to turn it down. On top of it all snooty and arrogant Europeans (the complex-ridden French in particular) are seen as looking down on Ameirca and biting the hand which has fed them for decades. Ingratitude supreme!

Répondez s'íl vous plaît!

That probably didn't sway them either way ;-)


It is far more 'the West' than anywhere else. Poland has chosen Western democracy, EU membership, NATO membership, etc, etc


Now, Polson, listen very carefully; I will say this only once. Raise your eyes slowly towards the top of the screen. You'll see (on the tab if you use a Mac, somewhere similar if you use Windows) the name of a country. It begins with the letter 'P'.


So in effect, you're trying to say that it isn't true democracy if an elite exists. Good luck with that.

And in Ukraine, yes, they want democracy as we saw in Euromaidan (and don't try to pretend the=at was some sort of 'set up'). They are a young democracy, but they are a democracy. They don't want a large and dangerous neighbour invading. They want peace, stability and democratically elected rulers. And they want prosperity, which brings us back to my original post which you tried to argue about: Poland has done the right thing in giving aid to their beleagured neighbour and they have done the right thing in using that aid to promote cross-border trade.

Or perhaps you support the Putinists and their power games instead...

Because they watch too much television. They should read more instead.

Money and marketing can do wonders.


I'm not sure it really had much choice. Unlike America, Europe was ruined at the end of WW2.


C'est fait, cher ami ;)


I can only agree with that ;)


I meant culturally, sociologically.


'We' didn't make war to promote democracy in Poland. Plus, Poland was a democracy before WW2 (not for a long time, but still). Poland was ready for democracy, historically and culturally.

I was refering to Third-World countries.


I'm saying that world leaders don't really care about defending democracy in Iraq, Libya, or Syria. Democracy is just a pretext. They need to have us believe it's for democracy. That's what I'm saying.


I'm sure they do, and I wish them all the best. But Yanukovych was democratically elected. He may have been a bad president (I wasn't there, tbh), but he was democratically elected. And next elections were coming soon.


Power games do not only come from Russia.
I support smart diplomacy and peace.

Poland was effectively a dictatorship and/or undemocratic for half of the II RP's existence, unfortunately. The last real free election was in 1928, and even that was subject to massive interfence and voter intimidation.


He was, but his conduct was so unbelievable that it's entirely understandable why Maidan happened. The amount of theft by his associates (including his son) is just staggering. Imagine that he ran the country down so badly that Ukraine only had around 8,000 battle-ready troops at the time of the invasion of Crimea?

Now you're squirming. You didn't say 'make war' did you. You said:


And the answer is Poland.

Unless you think Poland (or any other part of the west) is 'making war' in Ukraine...


So you're saying it's all a conspiracy and people are so infantilised that democratic movements must be a "pretext" orchestrated by 'them'? That's a very cynical way of looking at the world. Some of us do believe in democracy.


And then he fled, and a new president was democratically elected. Mind you. you conveniently forget that Yanukovich poisoned at least two other election candidates. But hey, if you want to pretend that's "democratically elected" go right ahead. We'll watch.


In which case you should resolutely support Poland's international aid to Ukraine and condemn unreservedly Russia's invasion of Ukrainian sovereign territory.

hahahaha stupidity at its best display....

With all the oligarchs and their private armies, it would have been no problem ;)
More seriously, I understand the motives for the Maidan. But it was a peaceful protest. What happened then is unclear.


We were talking about making wars as a way to supposedly promote democracy and peace.


I honestly don't know what is really going on in Ukraine. I do believe tho that the West is partly responsible for the situation.

Ukraine has been a geostrategic goal for the West for a long time (and this has nothing to do with the well-being of its inhabitants). That's why 'we' want it in our team so bad, even tho that country have always had strong historical, cultural, and economical ties with Russia.

Also, we have to take into account that many Ukrainians, mainly in the eastern parts of the country, are closely related to Russia. They speak Russian, are married to Russians, work with Russians, etc.

The Euromaidan events don't represent what all Ukrainians want. That's important too if what really matters is democracy.


I think you (partly) got me wrong. I do think that democracy has its limits (but that's something we'll discuss some other day if you want ;)). But what I meant is that we should always be wary when our governments go to war and tell us (people) that the only motivations are peace and democracy, because we've seen many times in the past that these were not the real reasons. The most ridiculous example would be the 2003 Iraq war (or should I say invasion).

That being said, I may be a little cynical sometimes but I can assure you my intentions are good ;)


A lot has been said. Hard to know where the truth lies.


I would if I was certain Russia was the only bad guy in that 'game'. But I'm not. And I really doubt that Poroshenko is the right person for Ukraine.

The only diplomacy we've seen so far is sanctions and more sanctions. And we're all losing in that little childish game.
I wonder where the promoters of peace and democracy were when the US invaded Iraq or when Israel bombs Palestians. Did anyone put sanctions on them? I don't think so.

Merged: Another Invasion of Ukraine imminent?


neweurope.eu/article/rumours-swirl-imminent-russian-attack-ukraine/

One hardly needs a newspaper to tell us an invasion is possible at any time. Any country too close to the mentally ill state of russia is always going to be under threat, have a rubbish economy and generally be infected by this virus. Nothing new at all. Since they have no interest there the western countries won't care, they will pretend for 5 minutes do some meaningless sanctions and go back to importing muslims. An imminent invasion of russias neighbours is a default position. Under the despotic dictator putin this is an increased chance.

yea,but those states liberated by the west are paradises,like kosovo,iraq,afganistan,lybia ,Chechenia and now syria,and on and on.
according to Qatar state information agency,ukraine sells weapon to IS.plus this banderstan turned to terrorism itself:
youtube.com/watch?v=t2bdWHmkKYg
funny,how all countries "liberated" by USA always end up with massive terrorism problems.wonder if thats just coincidence

no threat for Poland. We Serbians won`t allow that. All knows it. Even birds on trees. Things move exactly as we like it and, we would make sure that all Russian frustrations and sickness fall directly on western Europe.


pardon, in Serbian constitution nicely says that is Kosovo and Metohija province within Serbia. So, Kosovo isn`t state. Its NATO/EU protectorate which there share rule with Muslim mafia clans. But, there would be order once when Serbia liberate it.

Its a very specific threat.

Russian armor is amassing in the north of Crimea at the junction of the two main roads in to the Ukrainian mainland.

Standard Russian false flag excuse are being given

If you ask me, it would be absolutely normal and logical if Russia invade complete western Europe and re-Slavicize complete area. That would finally finish Drang Nach Osten and bring peace.

Well, later, we would see what would of western Europe (and Europe as a whole) belong to Russia and what would join in Intermarium (ie New Commonwealth) around Poland and Serbia.

Complete liberation of the western Europe would have Pope`s blessing. All heretics would be purged. All deluded souls would be turned back to Slavdom and Christendom. At the end, only two European conglomerate powers and countries would remain, one around Poland and the other one around Russia.

Christianity would be re-united. i don`t mind, let Pope rule.

:)

Donatan Cleo - Slavica [Official Video]

youtube.com/watch?v=n4gIJf7poiU

Are you kidding or are you deranged?


Well, Poland will not defend them - hopefully. Might defend them for a price. (whispering ...our lands back...)

no. Western Europe pushing it nice on itself. They would anyway become Aurabia. Much better to re-Slavicize them and save that people for Slavdom. Then, after all, with only Vatican, Intermarium (ie New Commonwealth) and Russia (ie Eurasian Union) as states on the continent, Europe would be nicer and more simplistic place.

But i for sure thought that in the process Russia must avoid and bypass Poland, Serbia and complete eastern Europe. They have enough of technology and capacity to do that.

You said it.

i would even go that far to suggest name of Russian military operation which could occur for invasion and liberation of western Europe. Name of military operation should be: `orgasmo`

NATO should show they've got b*lls and liberate illicitly annexed Crimea and return it to its rightful owner, Ukraine. Strenght is the only language the Rooskies understand. Negotiations, dialogue and agreements are things Moscow never honours anyway as teey see these as a sign of weakness.

but NATO is terrorist and heretic organization, tainted by schemes with worse mujaheedines. Russians have Pope`s blessings.