Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

So do you trust the Russian security services?

I trust them as much as I trust any one I don't know. Do you trust people you don't know?

What I would like to see is some evidence that the recording was doctored. Allegations were made that it was edited but no evidence offered. I would also like to know why and when she said the disputed words the words.

Without expert opinion it's still a conspiracy.

Wow, so you trust the Russian security services as much as you trust anyone. That suggests either an absolute lack of trust, extreme gullibility or talking bollox.

OK Jon I know you also never answer a straight question.

Is a rhetorical question a 'straight' question?

But since you pretend to be interested, yes I do frequently trust (and distrust) people I don't know. The new doctor at the health centre for example. I don't know him, but all evidence suggests he's trustworthy. The guy with the baseball cap lurking in the dark alleyway after closing time is one not to trust. The KGB come in that latter category.

Barney, are you some forensic investigator? Do you think they will send you a special report "Proof for Barney about the manipulations of the phone call"? Let's imagine she has said it. There will be an investigation that will verify the validity of this accusation. Ukraine is currently under Russian invasion. I don't know whether this is the most important issue in Ukraine now and for its investigators who said what over the phone. If you have someone getting into your home at night, do you ask your girlfriend if she had washed the dishes? I mean, what is your problem? On the main Russian TV channel they said that Russia has capability to make a nuclear waste zone out of the US. The video below. This was said during the invasion of Ukraine's Crimea. Would you be surprised if the alleged Tymoshenko's phone conversation, which followed days later, was proved (and this will be analyzed in the future) authentic?


Call her. Simple as that.

Now about the Russian TV threat to the US and basically to the whole world:
youtube.com/watch?v=Bn0XfCYhd2U


Why? No extermination camps yet?


You seem old and without visible thought processes, but that is not the point. I am not here to describe people.


This is not about the allegiance to the government, but to the common thing, aka res publica, where people come together to create a society where people's voices are heard through free elections. No system is perfect, but there is a huge difference between the governments in the US, Germany, Britain on one side and Russia, North Korea on the other side. Maybe, if you leave warm and civilized south US and go visit Russia for a month, you would thank God that you have a US passport and will kiss the stripes and stars like this is your salvation. Because it is. For you a flag, as you said, is just a pointless stick people fight for. You have no idea how important is what the flag stands for and how important it is to defend it.

Nathan, you are very arrogant and a pretty bad judge of people. I spent enough time in Russia to know it is no North Korea, no matter how much you'd like it to be. I still think that Ukraine is better off, economically, with Russia, than on it's own. You can rant and rave, and kiss flags all you want, but there are other opinions than your own. Get over yourself.

Putting Russia with North Korea is just retarded.

The US has bombed and murdered more than all the other those countries combined within the past few decades.
The country has effectively spied on people around the world. The US propaganda machine is unmatched in this world.
For me the US is the same as Nazi Germany and Soviets. Nations which butcher millions as they please and think they are lords of something.

And the governments in Western Europe like the ******* they are bow to US pressure and repeat.

You seem to think Putin is some Hitler when only a lunatic would put them in the same category. Hitler killed tens of millions, Putin is playing geopolitics and has done so with minimal casualties. Your side has killed some people to and your side isnt innocent either.


Moscow and St. Petersburg are like normal European cities.
Kim Jong whatever is a psychopath and he goes nicely with leaders like Bush or Clinton.

Don't forget Obama :) lol.I don't think that any country should impose it's will on another country,and yes that includes my USA.If the west hadn't been stirring things up in Kiev,Putin wouldn't have had this opportunity handed to him on a silver platter.

Oh dear. I'm not there either.

You mentioned a couple of times that "I am young and easy manipulated", isn't this arrogant? I replied that you are old and basically not too bright. I guess both of us are arrogant then.


You haven't been to Russia.


Ukraine is interested in being a part of the EU in the future. Now, we have signed the association agreement. As to Russia. How can one be better off with the country, like Russia, which invades, terrorizes and now it blackmails with the illegally and against the unilaterally denounced agreement about the gas prices rise in the costs of this fuel. It banned on multiple occasions meat, milk, cheese, now even dry milk from Ukraine. Just because. Like what economical relationship can there be with Russia, after all that?


Sheer stupidity is to say that.


I value and appreciate opinions of other people. But again - opinions. Don't mistake one sentence nonsense with an opinion.


rt.com?

lol,no Soros .com

link?

No link,just do some research on George Soros,and his friends of democracy

This is why talking to you is useless.
I've been to Russia 3 times. Ukraine, once. Also, I don't have a US passport.
So, if you cannot accept these simple facts, you might as well be talking to yourself.

Listen Nathan,I am all for the Ukranian people,and wish ya'll the best,what I'm saying to you is the Ukraine is being used in a big tug of war,and neither side is innocent,or has the best interests of Ukraine at heart.

I see.

You have to realize,things aren't always what it seems when "democracy" is to be spread.

No one is innocent and never will be, but neither EU, nor the US have invaded my country. Guess where are our former president, general prosecutor and the minister of the internal affairs now? People who are the criminals, whichever way you look at them. They are in Russia with billions of stolen state money. The Hague tribunal will be waiting for them for war crimes.

Nathan,If you don't think that the EU and the US have a hand in this,then you are very naive.I know how my government works.

I know that, p3undone. But look at the EU and look at Russia. What arguments can there be? You may find fault in every system. My country has been in the system of Russian terror for centuries. We are still have to fight away even today to get rid of this crepe. Of course, every side has its own benefits to look after. Everybody knows that. It is easier to be a neutral judge from the side and present the argument pro et contra to those who or whose relatives went through enough of this to even pay attention. Ukraine has to be with Europe - Point!

I'm not and neither is any other poster on this thread despite idle speculation. Basically I have asked for proof this recording was doctored, that's it. The song and dance that has followed is the responsibility of others who refuse to answer a straight question.

This is a side show and typically drives the thread away from the initial uncomfortable point which was the demonisation of Russian people. Totally unhelpful phrases like Russian Scum were used to close down debate I pointed out that Tymoshenko had advocated the murder of Russians which gives some credence to their fears. Since then others have attempted to shout the loudest. The problem is that I can't be bullied, allegations were made that the recording was doctored its normal to ask for proof.

So far none has been offered.

So you'd like them in your country trying to stage a takeover then, with an army poised to invade?

Do you have a proof that they were not doctored? Basically, we can stop here at 50/50, because no one knows.


In addition, almost 80% of the Russians supported the invasion. I think it is beyond sick. That society needs a psychiatric intervention. I mean what kind of people would support war against a neighboring country, which has done nothing of a threat or whatever? Very sick society, because this cannot be justified even partially by the propaganda machine working there. For crying out loud, we live in the world of internet, there billions of sources of information to search for truth in. This imperialistic mentality of allegedly searching for the solution of the miserable life problems within the country by invading and destroying lives of others is pervasive in the majority's daily existence.

Exactly if you looking at a historical sources you can see how is Russia closely related to the Ukraine. Actually, Russia was born from within Kievan Rus. Then comes the Christianity and divisions inside of Christianity, what brought other divisions.

I was quite surprised that after dissolution of the Soviet Union, Russia that slightly allowed formation of Ukraine and with such a borders. Obviously, Russia respected specifics of Ukrainians and believed that Ukraine can exist at least as neutral on global powers and, probably, Russia had hopes for closer ties with Ukraine in the future. Now, when things changed. When regime in Ukraine comes under the German, British, French and USA control, Russia and Russians see situation in new light. They now wants to save what can be saved. That`s how things stand in their heads. Its not sickness. NATO and EU pressuring them to move. That`s it.


Good Lord, how great truth has been said here.

I have said repeatedly that I am opposed to the partition of Ukraine and still find using the word scum unhelpful.


The allegation is that the recording was doctored the onus is on the person making the allegation, they must provide proof for what they say.

Tymoshenko admits the vast majority of the recording is genuine, when and why did she say the words that the conspiracy theorists insist were spliced into the mostly genuine recording?

Why is it so difficult to believe that the woman said a stupid thing especially when there is no evidence to suggest otherwise?

How relevant is it that someone who doesn't hold current political or administrative office said this or that on a frankly dubious bugged recording? I'd be interested to know what Putain and Lavrov say in private.

Really, this whole discussion detracts from the sheer terror and anxiety that Ukrainians are facing, it detracts from people whose life savings have been reduced because of the effect on the stock market, it detracts from the grief of families of protestors shot by the pro-Russianists at Majdan and it deflects from the known facts about Russia's past and current crimes.

He has no proof at all to support his claim that the tape is authentic.


We could say it's 50/50, or we could look at the two sources: one is a globally respected former political prisoner who served years for daring to stand up to the scum in the Kremlin and the other is a group of people proven to lie, cheat, steal and murder. For some reason Barney wants us to completely disbelieve the former and unquestioningly accept the word of the latter.


We can add that to the long list of questions which Barney will never answer (with anything other than insults).


The point there is that they are scum, no matter how much you claim otherwise. However, you yourself have repeatedly used the words 'neo-Nazis' and 'fascists' to try to close down debate but used it to describe people who are very simply not 'neo-Nazis' or 'fascists'. Isn't it hypocrisy on an epic scale when you complain about other people using accurate descriptions to supposedly close down debate while you yourself lie about the other side in order to close down debate?


The allegation is that the recording is genuine, the onus is on the person making the allegation, they must provide proof for what they say.

The allegation is that Tymoshenko said something, the onus is on the person making the allegation, they must provide proof for what they say.
Good luck with that.


But you're happy to lie about the current government of Ukraine and the previous prime minister of Ukraine, to claim that the 'UDI' was legitimate, lie about the 'referendum', etc, etc.


But you're more than happy to lie about the current government of Ukraine being controlled by 'neo-Nazis' and 'fascists'.
And the people you want us to unquestioningly accept the word of are scum: they are illegally invading another country, they have stolen billions of dollars, they have locked people for opposing them, they have murdered people for opposing them, they are even happy to murder British civilians citizens in Britain who oppose them (but we'd best not discuss when your views on the murder of civilians in their own country, especially given how you won't agree that people who use limpet mines to murder kids who are doing their Christmas shopping are 'terrorists').

I dont have to prove that anything is genuine it just is, those making the allegations have to prove they are not telling lies, so far Harry has failed to do so.


Of course it does, those performing a song and a dance because they cant support their allegations have made it that way.


That is an insane statement. You said the tape was edited I asked you to provide proof so far you have not, you lied.

You claim that her words were spliced, when and why did she say she wanted to murder 8 million Ukranians? words the conspiracy theorists claim were spliced?


Its common and normal to have independent expert evidence, her word in this dispute is worthless. Has she explained where or why she did say the words?

Harry you said the tape was edited prove it without mentioning Monday morning fantasies

So you mean you can't prove it is genuine and we just have to take the word of the proven liars and murderers who you support and not accept the word of a globally respected former political prisoner who served years for daring to stand up to the scum you support.


You said here " I accept the tape as genuine and think Tymoshenko was angry and said a silly thing." Your allegation is that the tape is genuine.


Got any proof at all that she said that? Or should we just accept unquestioningly the word of the murderous scum you support?


So you want us to believe that her word is worthless but the word of people who murder British civilians in Britain must be accepted unquestioningly; how surprising to see you in that stance.


Barney, you said the tape was authentic and that Tymoshenko said she wanted to murder 8 million Ukranians [sic]: prove it.