Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Sure Harry, what ever you say.. even though I go on rants about Ukraine and state that there should be more unity between these countries, yep I definitely don't know were Ukraine is (sarcasm).

Stay on topic this time.Thank you.
There is no internationally recognized Donbass rep, I agree. But the concept definitely exists in that part of the world and all power to them until Kiev comes to it's senses and things start to cool down .

Video about the Donbass referendum
youtube.com/watch?v=Rz8SmbVCK_s

well said, gtg ;-)

It wasn't legitimate in any sense.


It isn't 'adequate' in any sense and the people of Ukraine whose whole lives and well being are at stake don't give a flying **** whether or not some Canadian teenager 'accepts' it or not. Nor does the dictator Putin.

Jon, several innocent people already died at the hands of the Ukrainian governments counter terrorism operations, I think you conveniently missed that part
PS-this argument is not about me. Present your sources and facts, this is something Harry is at least doing.

Pro-Maidan rally in Poland Lodz

Not that any innocent people have ever died at the hands of the Russians, have they?
And yes, it is relevant to comment when a teenager from thousands of miles away who's never been to this continent (and probably never will) starts spouting nonsense about a foreign country's invasion of our neighbour.

One would think of the millions of Ukrainians who were murdered by Russians during the Holodomor, or at least one does if one knows at least a tiny bit about the history of our part of the world, which counts out certain people, and explains why they have trouble understanding current events here.

Remember how Russia claimed it had pulled back its forces from the border with Ukraine? Turns out that that claim was just as truthful as the ones made here by Kremlin-fanboys about the government which was lawfully appointed by the same parliament which was legally elected in the Ukrainian parliamentary elections of 2012 being a junta and that the Ukrainian Interior Minister, Arsen Avakov, founded the Ukrainian Nazi Party and that the current acting president of Ukraine stood in the 2010 presidential elections getting 1% of the vote and that special police units were sent to Odessa in response to the deaths there before the deaths happened and that the National Guard of Ukraine is not under the jurisdiction of the Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs and that Neo-nazis are in control of the Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education ministries and that ....


telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10829388/US-releases-satellite-images-of-Russian-forces-near-Ukraine-borders.html

magnificent whataboutery that has exactly nothing to do with what he said.

Quite a lot actually since he's playing the game that the Russians are somehow an oppressed minority, conveniently ignoring the terrorist takeover of public buildings and the government's entirely lawful response to that.

Plus of course the Russians' (very relevant here) appalling body count among those who disagree with them.

Would you like people to address what people said? OK, let's address what you said:
you said that the Ukrainian Interior Minister, Arsen Avakov, founded the Ukrainian Nazi Party;
you said that the current acting president of Ukraine stood in the 2010 presidential elections and got 1% of the vote;
you said that special police units were sent to Odessa in response to the deaths there before the deaths happened;
you said that he secretary of an advisory state body to the president of Ukraine is able to control the National Guard of Ukraine; and

you said that Neo-nazis are in control of the Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education ministries.

Would you like to address any of those lies?

That looks like a huge collection of lies.

No he is not playing a game, he pointed out that people have died. You responded with classic whataboutery. No one voted for IMF austerity except the Junta in Kiev a decision that will profoundly impact on the well being of the average person.

The people of the south and east were effectively disenfranchised by the coup the President was replaced by someone without a mandate, one of their first actions of the Junta was to try and discriminate against Russian speakers. The known Nazi Parubiy who is in direct control of security sent Nazi terrorists to the south and east. He sent tanks to be used against civilians on victory day, the mass murder in Odessa by a crowd led by Parubiy's Maiden thugs somehow becomes the latest conspiracy, they murdered and raped themselves.

The Soviet body count has nothing to do with this issue its racist propaganda which is as relevant as the numerous genocides perpetrated by the Western colonial powers who repeatedly invade sovereign states and prop up despotic regimes.

If we can do whataboutery the Fascist Bandera slaughter suddenly becomes relevant but you hypocritically ruled that out a few posts ago.

Are you ever going to explain how a government which was lawfully appointed by the same parliament which was legally elected in the Ukrainian parliamentary elections of 2012 can be a junta? Or is it just another of the lies which you keep on telling and then refusing to comment on? Just like your lies about the current Ukrainian president and the current Interior minister and the ministers for the Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education.


You are very simply lying, Barney, yet again. Parubiy is the secretary of a state body which advises the president of Ukraine, he is not in control of security. The man who is in control of security is the Minister of the Interior, Arsen Avakov, who you lied about by claiming that he founded the Ukrainian Nazi Party.

And Parubiy is actually a member of the "All-Ukrainian Union "Batkivshchyna" ("The Fatherland") party. Are you claiming that Fatherland is a Nazi party? You do seem to be seeing Nazis everywhere you look. You see them in control of the Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education ministries. But everybody else just sees your lies.

You are of course most welcome to keep lying, just please remember that I'll be pointing those lies out to everybody here.

Yes. People have died when opposing Russia
Not just 70 years ago, but very recently and very well documented.

By the way, Barney, are you going to respond to that list of lies of yours?

People have been tortured to death for opposing Russia this year.

But then we're talking about pro-Kremlin forces who are perfectly happy to kidnap and assault Red Cross workers and OSCE observers, so what can you expect.


Sadly I very much doubt that he will. But he'll no doubt keep on telling them.

Why dismiss one set of whataboutery and not another?

You said "It isn't about what did or didn't happen 70 years ago" then went on to indulge in whataboutery, that's very odd.

Can one discuss other events or not, you are not clear on that point?


You expect me to respond to another poster who has never answered a direct question here?
Can you not post for yourself?

I decide what I post and when I post it.

And yet another lie from you Barney. I have actually answered lots of direct questions here, and been thanked for many of my answers.

Instead of lying about me, why don't you address some of the claims you have made here about the situation in Ukraine?
For example:
you said that the Ukrainian Interior Minister, Arsen Avakov, founded the Ukrainian Nazi Party;
you said that the current acting president of Ukraine stood in the 2010 presidential elections and got 1% of the vote;
you said that special police units were sent to Odessa in response to the deaths there before the deaths happened;
you said that the secretary of an advisory state body to the president of Ukraine is able to control the composition of the National Guard of Ukraine; and

you said that Neo-nazis are in control of the Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education ministries.

Do you stand by those claims or would you like to apologise for lying to us?


Fine, but when you post lies, expect me to point them out as lies.

One big problem is that the long list of proven lies absolutely negates anything else he says on the issue. A total loss of credibility.

Jon it is touching that instead of clarifying your position on whataboutery or Ukraine in general you prefer to discuss me but as you dont answer direct questions either its predictable

Can you not post for yourself?

Perhaps you would like to clarify your position on Ukraine?
For example:
you said that the Ukrainian Interior Minister, Arsen Avakov, founded the Ukrainian Nazi Party;
you said that the current acting president of Ukraine stood in the 2010 presidential elections and got 1% of the vote;
you said that special police units were sent to Odessa in response to the deaths there before the deaths happened;
you said that the secretary of an advisory state body to the president of Ukraine is able to control the composition of the National Guard of Ukraine; and

you said that Neo-nazis are in control of the Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education ministries.

Would you like to clarify those claims or would you prefer to carry on just discussing other posters?

The position in Ukraine is very clear. Putin is trying, by whatever means fair or foul, to expand Russia's influence and rebuild the Soviet state.

Bogus plebiscites in Crimea and the Donbas, rigged general elections with Yanokovitch poisoning his opponents and massing troops at the border are all part of that.

It is crystal clear. The baffling thing is why people tell such blatant lies about events in Ukraine. And then refuse to make any attempt to justify or explain or apologise for those lies.

What isnt clear is your position on whataboutery but never mind.......
The above quote is mostly true, its also true that Yanokovitch was elected in a process deemed fair and reported as such by the media and agencies. He was removed in an unconstutional way, that is a coup, and replaced with someone who has no mandate.

Those who removed him came largely from the west of the country. the street thugs were dominated by neo nazis and led by the man who founded the Ukrainian Nazi party which later became Svoboda, this party is now in this new regime and he is in day to day control of security.

The people of the south and east were effectively disenfranchised by the Kiev Junta a regime that then attempted to discriminate against them and sent tanks and armed Nazis against them. It's no wonder that the Russophobes and Nazis in Kiev are hated by most in the south and east. This is what happens when you use violence to achieve your aims. The Junta never tried to accommodate Russian speakers they are national supremacists.

It seems your definition of 'deemed fair' is what anyone else would consider 'heavily criticised'. Especially when he poisoned his opponent. But then again, nothing you say has any credibility due to the parade of lies you've trotted out.

What's your connection with Poland and/or Ukraine, anyway?

Its not my decision but I do agree with it, the election was deemed fair by the OSCE.

Again.........It is touching but not unxepected that you would like to pry into my personal history but I'll decline the off topic trolling.

Or avoid the issue that you have no connection with either country and are just here to troll.

So what about the long list of lies that you've trotted out and refuse to elaborate on? How can anyone believe anything else you write?

He refused to take actions he had committed to taking and then abandoned his post. After that the parliament voted to replace him with the speaker of the parliament, just as the constitution dictates. Simple as that. Why did you lie about him being replaced by a man who got 1% of the vote in the 2010 presidential elections?


No matter how many times you tell that lie, it will remain a lie. Parubiy is the secretary of a state body which advises the president of Ukraine, he is not in control of security. The man who is in control of security is the Minister of the Interior, Arsen Avakov, who you lied about by claiming that he founded the Ukrainian Nazi Party.


No matter how many times you tell that lie, it will remain a lie: the government was lawfully appointed by the same parliament which was legally elected in the Ukrainian parliamentary elections of 2012.


That's Barney's modus operandi: lie, lie and keep lying, as is shown by all the lies he's been caught telling above.

That is a quote about the elections of 2012 which another poster insists is the democratic basis for the current Junta. It is not about the presidental elections which were deemed fair by OSCE.


No I just dont wish to have my personal history discussed a history that has nothing to do with you.

What 'junta'? Do you mean the government that Yanukovitch abandoned?

And what about your long list of lies, Barney?

If Yanukovitch was removed constitutionally perhaps you could provide some evidence or produce an official resignation document. I have been asking for this for a long time and not surprisingly neither letter or due process have been produced.

I refer you to Resolution of the Verkhovna Rada №764-VІІ of 23.02.2014.

Now, how about you address your lies? For example:
you said that the Ukrainian Interior Minister, Arsen Avakov, founded the Ukrainian Nazi Party;
you said that the current acting president of Ukraine stood in the 2010 presidential elections and got 1% of the vote;
you said that special police units were sent to Odessa in response to the deaths there before the deaths happened;
you said that the secretary of an advisory state body to the president of Ukraine is able to control the composition of the National Guard of Ukraine; and

you said that Neo-nazis are in control of the Armed Forces, National Security, Economy, Justice and Education ministries.

Would you like to clarify those claims or would you prefer to carry on just pretending you haven't told those lies?