Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

Isn't it interesting that none of the war-mongering Fox correspondents ever get a case of conscience?


but aren't those Putin's puppets? You have to make up your mind if this scum is Putin's scum or not. Putin certainly does have the air force.

Stop with the lies, f stop, the Ukrainian govt did restrict airspace, to only attitudes above the range of shoulder-fired missiles. Then your hero in the Kremlin supplied the terrorists with better missiles and failed to tell anybody about that.

who cares about the shoulder-fired missiles? They new about the BUK's. Their own got stolen, for Christ's sake!
And enough about accusing everyone of telling lies, Harry. Not everyone you disagree with is telling lies. Makes you sound like a 5 year old.

cannot comment on this. I do not own TV set for about 12 years.
All US big networks sucks.
At least (from what I'm reading) Fox is countering CBS, NBC, ABC and CNN.. so if Fox goes overboard against those big 4 it is just fine with me. At least some balance out there.

All those networks get the news from the same sources, like France Press, AP, Reuters etc and then wrap up that news the way as they see fit.

(that method applies if they don't have their own sources on the ground).

the most objective was breitbart.com, the wire ticker was popping news minute by minute on their website. All that stopped after Breitbart death...
They say that Andrew Breitbart was killed to silence him... Well there is no evidence prove it (yeah they conducted autopsy 5 days after his death, WHY?),

but I say in every rumor there is a seed of the truth.

@F spot Don't defend RT too much, I have seen the RT video in question as the RT anchor expressed concerns of manipulating the news and being one sided.. This video is long gone from YT.. Why?

i am absolutely sure that USA don`t tris to punish Russia this way. USA actions are more sinister. This event with destroyed plane serve to turn public opinion against Russia. That on one side. That is necessary considering that even public in USA and on the west of Europe isn`t, anymore, convinced that NATO/EU knows what they doing and that they have moral right to giving lessons to Russia.

On the other side, it serve to homogenize Ukrainians (to issue pressure on them by spin doctors), by giving space for propaganda machinery to show `Ukrainian` solidarity with people that died in crash (caused by Russia, as some mass media insist), what again moving Ukraine closer to the EU/NATO orbit, also by awakening solidarity with Ukraine of the public in countries of EU/NATO.

Realizing this i becoming quite upset. Seams that NATO/EU leading powers prepares (manipulates) its public for the more drastic actions against Russia. It could mean that they prepares its public for the war with Russia or for another Gold War.

i was witness of the events in former Yugoslavia. All major events (tragedies) in case with back then Yugoslavia and modern day Ukraine has same pattern of appearance. Provide explanation/reason to your own actions and, reduce maneuverable space of the opposing side. i truly begins to feel uncomfortable by being aware that EU represent nothing but the emerging empire hostile on Slavs. USA act as ally of the EU and NATO is tool. But, i am happy to note that the majority of the Islamic factor abandoned its collaboration with EU/USA/NATO, against Slavs. Islamic world is divided. Arabs are for cooperation, while Turkey obviously have to play some role against Slavs.


Legitimacy of the modern-day Ukrainian government is more and more questionable. It, primarily, turned to be EU/NATO weapon against Russia. That is sad for Ukraine and Ukrainians. Their legitimate wish and energy for necessary changes in the country was, by manipulation of USA and west of Europe, used to turn Ukraine into the battlefield.

Oh, I blame FAA as well. But, having dealt with FAA for years, I know that it's a huge bureaucratic machine, that unless faced with catastrophic loss of life, it takes years to make rules, and twice as long to change them.

However, if I'm driving in a country that insists on being able to govern itself, and the road ahead is unsafe, I expect that government to close the road.

I doubt that.. EU mainly France and Germany aren't interested punishing Russia,
the lobby in Germany is putting big pressure on Merkel on the daily basis to slow down with sanctions.
German economy is very much depended on the trade with Russia, Money rules here.

So US is in odds with the EU. in terms of sanctions.
NATO? there is no NATO, only UK and US have substantial Armed Forces (Frenchies have their own philosophy)
the rest are vassals of NATO with no armies. (and the German Army still has stigma from WW II to get involved anywhere)

don`t be naive. Take WWII for example. Primary target were Slavs. Not to say that Hitler and Napoleon were on the same job.


its a game.


yes. But only until Russia exist.


No. They are on the same job. Until they destroy Russia or found alternative to it. Maybe until they annex African continent to their realm, if Russia prove to be too strong.


i know that. But, don`t underestimate German totalitarian capabilities. In a few days, they could mobilize army of millions.


many are but, Germany must be understand as an iron fist of the coalition. A spear that is stubbed in the heartland of Slavdom

MoOSCOW - One of the first of the various bizarre theories to emerge from the Russian media's coverage of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 downing was also one of the most outlandish: the Tale of the Spanish Dispatcher.

The night of the disaster, a certain "Carlos," presenting himself as a Spanish air traffic controller working in Kiev, began Tweeting in Spanish that Ukrainian jets, rather than separatists on the ground, had shot down the passenger plane. Russian media took the bait: "Spanish dispatcher: Two Ukrainian warplanes were near the Boeing before its disappearance," read the headline on the Kremlin's most propagandistic news outlet, Russia Today. Several major news outlets also picked up the story with similar headlines, including state channel Rossiya 24, the Defense Ministry's Zvezda channel, and popular newspapers like Komsomolskaya Pravda and Rossiiskaya Gazeta, the official mouthpiece of the Russian government. Others even speculated that Ukrainian forces had been trying to shoot down the Russian presidential jet, which supposedly had crossed paths with MH17 earlier that day. Between news broadcasts, Rossiya 24 added fuel to the fire by airing a segment about Siberian Air Flight 1812, which Ukraine admitted was accidentally shot down by its fighter jets over the Black Sea in 2001.

By the next day, Ukrainian and Western journalists had revealed "Carlos's" account, which has since been deleted, to be a fake. (The Spanish embassy said this Twitter user had been active during the Kiev protests but denied that any Spanish air traffic controller was in Ukraine.) Even Igor Korotchenko, editor of the Russian journal National Defense, argued the plane had not been shot down by fighter jets. No matter. The work was done: the narrative of events had already been muddied.

foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/07/18/infowars_russian_media_mh17_ukraine

@crow
What is your point? Some far fetched conspiracy to destroy Russia?

I don't see destroying Russia economically with their vast natural resources. Trade with China and India etc can replace the one with the EU.

And I don't see annexing Russia, who the hell would possibly be able to be policing such huge territory.
Plus the nukes factor.

Russia now is a bully, thanks to one person, Vladimir Putin the First. He plays Nationalistic card, playing on emotions especially of young people.

Like Hitler who brought back national pride, we all know how it all ended.

If Russia didn't annex Crimea, there would be no unrest, no rebels demanding independence in Eastern Ukraine..
Annexing Crimea started the domino effect.

Ukrainians are guilty of oligarchy robbing their own country. Stashing their own pockets.
The regular folks should wake up much sooner..

But the fact remains that Russia started playing with borders braking international treaties not Ukrainians.
Hell, if Ukraine still had the nukes, the game would be kinda different today

nope,liar
1.they closed airspace over ato completely on 8-th july
2.according to Geneva-based International Air Transport Association,on 17-th july restriction were lifted,despite the fact that 2 days earlier Antonow was shot down at 6.5 k altitude in exactly same place.(manpad range is 2-3k)

" it is believed that the airspace that the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions,"

reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/ukraine-crisis-airplane-iata-idUSL6N0PS6CN20140717

stop calling each other liars! Seriously, do you guys even know how to have a normal discussion??

Damn, I though that Carlos is still rotting in French prison. Maybe the Russians reactivated Illich Ramirez Sanchez.(as he was schooled in the Soviet Union)

for special job in Ukraine..
Smuggling laptop to Carlos by bribing Frenchie guards with cheese and wine is very possible :D
And perfect alibi being in jail :D

with Harry?,are you delusional or new here?
so what we know is:
1)8-th July ATO zone is closed to civilian planes.here link:

ukrinform.ua/eng/news/ukraine_closes_sky_over_donbas_323510

2) several military jest are shot down between 8-16 July over Sneznoye area. including Antonow shot down at 6.5k altitude.
3)there are no official information about lifting restriction,despite this someone divert MH-17 jet through ATO zone,which is not usual route for this plane. and Air Transport Association clain MH-17 was not subject of any restriction on 17-th July

4) we know pilot of this plane concerns about this as he said "i got bad feelings about this"

5) we know pilot requested permission to fly on higher altitude ,which was denied bu Ukra officials.

As usual gregy is lying. The first clue to that is the fact that the reuters article he links to in no way supports his claims. The proof that he is lying and that he knows he is lying comes from an article from 8 July that he himself gave us: voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_07_08/Kiev-shuts-airspace-over-southeast-Ukraine-7090


Ż

i gave this link before but it seems incorrect,since official statement of Ukrainian State Aviation Service doesn't mention altitude at all.
muahahahaha
so suddenly voiceofrussia is credible source for you even over official Ukrainian State Aviation Service statement?lol

i don`t like word `conspiracy`. There is only `interest`

Any discussion here is pointless. until something new happens there. (in Ukraine)

Did Russia started playing with borders? Yes they did.
Where do the green people are coming from a) Area 51 b) Russia c) Mars.

Any rebel, without ideological motivations, no matter the country is a terrorist as soon as it start using weapons.

Example all Polish uprisings with weapons were ideologically motivated, fighting either for independence or liberation.

I don't see that in Ukraine, they could fight for autonomy via peaceful means..

Same as in Spain, where 1977 post Franco Constitution left many options (loopholes) to do so.. As we now see fight for independence in Catalunya, Vascue Pais aka Basque, Galicia, Andalucia, Navarro, Ceuta and Melilla and so on and on.. But they all do it by evolving and using democracy. Despite of almost 30% of unemployment and 45%-50% among people below 28 years of age.

Give up gregy: your latest lie has been exposed. en.cfts.org.ua/news/state_aviation_service_revokes_certificates_of_three_airports_in_eastern_ukraine

An absolutely bare faced lie, on a par with the nonsense from the Russian media and the lame conspiracy theories Russian supporters are trying to whip up to deflect guilt. Nobody believes them.

Neither side should be jumping to conclusions, but both are using the situation for political gain. "Please, Mr. Putin can I have my dead child's body back" is truly embarrassing.

Idiots will always find a way to fight, I'm more concerned from the international aviation's point of view; why were commercial planes still flying over the area, after Ukrainians knew that separatists had the BUK??

The planes were flying at above the height of the operational missiles the terrorists were known to have. The problem is that nobody at the Kremlin realised how sickeningly stupid it is to give high-tech missiles to terrorists and how unforgivably stupid it is to do that without warning people who need to know.

"Three Buk-M1 medium-range antiaircraft systems, also known as the SA-11 Gadfly under the North Atlantic Treaty Organization designation, were known to be in rebel hands as early as July 14, said Vitaly Nayda, the head of the counterintelligence division of Ukraine's security service."

The mystery is, why didn't they close the airspace? Why play around with 26K feet if you know how high they can go?
That was negligent, at the very least.

Indeed they did they also knew that the rebels had captured this system from the Ukrainian Army. Despite Kiev claiming that they had not deployed this system in the region news reports (time and date stamped) exist that show they had indeed deployed this system.

cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-claims-victory-in-rebel-stronghold-of-slovyansk-1.2697356

They also claimed that the system(s) captured were inoperable which is stretching credibility considering that they had recently deployed them.

There are questions that need answered why Kiev again lied. That aside the responsibility for the tragedy lies with those who launched the weapon.

"We are going to have a fair trial then hang em" is what we are hearing at the moment not exactly encouraging.

i am curious is it possible to export tensions from Ukraine to Britain. i mean, what are chances for Scottish rebellion?

online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

Link for fstop's quote above.

That and those who helped them use it. Where is the missile launcher now, by the way?

I've no idea where it is do you know?

I don't know who was trained to use that thing or when they were trained if you have relevant information perhaps it would be best to wait for the investigation before presenting it.

Seriously Jon there is so much propaganda floating around there is no point pre judging any investigation.

And most if not all of the propaganda is flowing steadily from one direction. But now, even the sceptics don't believe it. I suspect we have an interesting few weeks ahead...

The immediate terrible event is swamped in propaganda from both sides, Kiev denied having those missiles in the area saying the Rebels don't have an airforce etc, the rebels denied having the AA system despite capturing them from the Ukrainian Army. Kiev denied loosing functioning AA systems already having denied deploying them in the area? So I think it's unfair to say the propaganda is flowing in one direction.