Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

people, listen. After contemplated on situation, i concluded that this kind of scenario, as it is ongoing in Ukraine, can easily happen even in Belgium. My God, Europe is so volatile continent

Much more interesting question - where is at least one 9C18 "Kupol" vehicle?

Spectacular 9A310 launcher isn't so much autonomous. At least there is very little chances to lock on high altitude target with a narrowbeam launcher radar without targeting information from "Kupol". As my friends, who worked with Buk during their army service, told - even for highly experienced operator it is practically impossible with any supersonic target on any altitudes, and the same is for high-altitude targets over 5-6k.

BTW- "Buk" complex consisting of 4 vehicles. All that was seen on photos from Donbass is launcher. In unknown condition and loaded with something looking like 9M38 missiles.

British TV had a discussion with someone from Jane's (a military publication) described as an AA missile expert, he said its possible but extremely difficult to launch and hit a target without the command vehicle

In the same discussion Andrii Kuzmenko, acting Ukrainian ambassador to the UK also tried to link the Smolensk crash and this recent event he suggested that Russia's hand was apparent in both events.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=gUl8R6HjNO4

Here (2.45 mins in) is the video of Andrii Kuzmenko, acting Ukrainian ambassador to the UK making the claim.

Thanks for info.

Isn`t this interesting development of situation. Think of it in the context of Poland.

Just crossed my mind... till now Poland somehow managed to preserve its `neutrality` in Europe. Yes, Poland is part of NATO and EU and, also managed to keep its image as the great Slavic country, balancing that way its interests in the Slavic realm, with its other interests. Now, with emerging new Ukraine, Poland can found itself in difficulty to prove that is greatest Slavic country part of EU/NATO, that is greatest Slavic ally within EU/NATO, greatest Slavic Catholic country and so on. New Ukraine, ethnically pure (when ethnically cleans and exterminate Russians and assimilate remaining Ruthenians, Poles and Serbs), would play leading role in eastern Europe, in the eyes of EU/NATO leading powers. That what west of Europe tried to accomplish with the so called project Poland by the Kanopisht pact, that failed (due to resistance of Slavic element in Poles), west of Europe pledge to accomplish in Ukraine. With it, `new` Ukraine may even replace Germany in its position of western European iron fist against Slavic world and particularly Russia.

In its final extent, west of Europe will essentially weaken Slavic world by forcing Slavs (Ukrainians and Russians) to become mortal enemies. How convenient. As old saying goes- Divide and Conquer, force your enemy to exterminate itself.

Command vehicle is another story.

Full "BUK" complex:

- 9C470 Command vehicle
- 9C18 "Kupol" Surveillance Radar/target determination
- 9A310 launcher (contains narrowbeam radar to automatically lock missile on assigned target after full set of trajectory parameters is transferred from "Kupol").
- 9A39 transport/reloader vehicle

It is not simply "extremely difficult" to hit high altitude target in manual mode with only launcher active, operator should be a wizard to do so from a first try.

I don't know anything about missiles that's why I think It's important to have an independent investigation.

If fights continue in Ukraine, at one moment we ahall pass so called `point of no return` and, new great world war would become inevitable. i urge on all people with power to show its responsibility and give contribution to peace.

I will not fight against my Slavic brothers. I hope for the best but expect the worst.

So basically they knew very well what they were doing.


Not even the disgraced Putin wants that.

One can't really say that with confidence

Given that it takes a bit of skill to shoot down a plane, we can say that it was deliberate. Whetherbthey krew what the plane was and how much of an atrocity they committed is another matter.

Does anyone by the way remember this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

i count on that. Especially, considering that i comprehend him as weakling.

Just have in mind that under the combined EU/NATO pressure, Putin may collapse but, Putin isn`t Russia. Sudden fall of Putin may result in unexpected Russia`s moves. Then, there is the Chinese factor, as we all know, that in this moment allied itself with Russia and, not just because of Putin.

So, i think that leading EU/NATO powers underestimate situation.


i just hope that, if conflict escalates, won`t be reduced on Ukraine and Russia. i expect leading NATO/EU powers to feel the full agony of the conflict. It would be honest considering their share of responsibility for bloodshed that occurred.

What i want to say, if Ukrainians and Russians suffer, why not Brits, Germans and Americans?


Bullies are USA, Britain, Germany, France and so what? On what card they play? Nationalistic? Corporative? They have power and they gave itself right to be bullies. Putin? No. Its propaganda of those who acts against Russia. Putin is little man of big power, who have orders by Russia`s magnates. For now he have orders to collaborate with the so called west. He have orders to provide resources to the west of Europe and accept all kind of blackmails, to retreat as long as it is possible.

So, weakling Putin could be easily replaced by the powerful man who would have obligation to give proper respond to the challenges in front of Russia.

Those who wants to see Putin down may see their wishes fulfilled. Most probably

Yes, from memory Ukraine put its hands up and admitted the mistake.

Far more relevant would be the three incidents where other Russian-armed terrorists used guided missiles to shoot down civilian airliners:
the 108 murdered on Wednesday 22 September 1993 when Abkhazian rebels shot down a Tupolev 154B of Orbi Georgian Airways after a flight from Tbilisi; and
the 27 murdered on Tuesday 21 September 1993 when the same scum shot down a Tupolev 134A of Transair Georgia.

Russia still denies having anything to do with those shoot-downs. Abkhazia remains occupied by Russian troops and the rebel scum have ethnically 'cleansed' large parts of the region of Georgians.


You are utterly delusional: Poles don't care in the slightest about any of that. Poles are Europeans first and foremost, not Slavs.

Not quite true. All you need is a launcher. It is equipped with IR seeker and a sighting system. With good visibility, it can be initiated at sight. I'm not sure what you mean by "extremely difficult".

"Russian liberal thrice-weekly Novaya Gazeta diverts from the party line today: "There is practically no doubt that the airliner was shot down by the separatists," it declares."

From BBC online.

I have no doubt that some gun-ho morons shot the plane. What I find distastefull, is west using this to jump all over Putin. The fact that it was BUK, Russian made, seems to be accepted as proof that Putin was involved.

Or assuming whoever trained these yahoos is culpable. Really? Aren't there ex-military among them?
But there still is a tiny possibility that it was the yahoos on the other side. Let's not forget who seems to gain the most from this tragedy: Ukrainians. They knew separatists had the BUKs. They had them too.

I wish they were more forthcoming with information from their Air-traffic control. It's still possible that they know exactly where the BUK was fired from.

Let me guess, the terrorist scum purchased the BUK at the same cornershop where Putin claims the scum who invaded Crimea bought their equipment, right?


No they did not know the separatists had operations BUKs, stop lying. The BUKs the terrorists captured in June were not operational: they had no warheads. Evidence that the terrorists had either somehow repaired those missiles or obtained new ones first came only on 14 July and there was no knowledge, only suspicions, and ones which your hero in the Kremlin flatly denied.

Harry, you're going to have to find somebody else to fight with, or talk to yourself. We know Ukraine knew separatists had BUKs, 3 days before. Ukrainian intelligence said this already.

Anyhow, Harry aside, I find the possibilities fascinating. Too bad there are reports of beer bottles scattered around at the supposed launch site, the chance that this was a band of drunken fools with a dangerous weapon is more plausible than that this was a "brilliant military manuver".

Has anyone heard the reports that the plane was escorted by a military jets through part of the Russian leg?

Yet again you are very simply lying.


online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-official-says-separatists-had-missiles-1405773387


Really? Was it? That would be very very impressive. Nearly as impressive as you explaining why a plane leaving Amsterdam flew over Russia, did a U turn and then flew almost all the way over Ukraine before heading back to Russia again.

I believe Harry is totally unable to present his point without accusing someone of lying. Or.. can he be this stupid?

One of my points is that you are lying. If you don't want me to make that point, stop lying.

you are embarrassing yourself.

Yawn. I wonder why you want to have an off-topic ad hom discussion. Could it be to distract attention from the fact that your hero and his buddies in the Kremlin have a sizable amount of blood on their hands?

Anyway, here's an article about your hero and his buddies in the Kremlin:


Full article here: businessinsider.com/this-is-what-kremlin-panic-looks-like-2014-7
And it even deals with your 'drunk rebel with an itchy trigger finger' theory. Enjoy.

Nevermind. I thought you were somebody else.

Yes this article just about wrapped things up how I see it.

But gals and guys, stop accusing each other of lying... Poor argument.
Use words like "contradict" , "differ", "contravene" "negate" (to negate previous statement), "oppose" etc.

We are here all buddies, but I do agree that on this subject with zillions articles from various sources one might get confused.
I am for one who is confused.
But this article nails my sentiments and opinion.

Thesises of russian MOD's todays statement:
1. Boeing deviated towards north from its route while it was flying near Donetsk region. After flying 14 km it attempted to return back to the initial route.

2. Craft was falling for 3 minutes.
3. RF MOD has satellite images of UA Buks positioned in the region.
4. At 17th of July a Buk battery had been 5 kilometers south of Shakhtersk, near rebels' positions. Next day battery left.
5. 17th of July was the peak day of activity of UA's Kupol systems.
6. At that particular time there were 3 civil crafts in the area.
7. At 17:20, July 17th, SU-25 was recorded gaining altitude towards Boeing. Minimal distance between them was 3-5 kms.
8. Unknown flying object was discovered by radar stations in Rostov near the crash site, right at the moment when Boeing hit the ground. Identification was impossible, that's not unusual for military crafts. Stations were not able to discover it earlier because system cannot see object on altitude higher than 5000 km while being in stand-by mode. After Boeing fell this uknown object was barraging sometime over the crash site.

9. At the time when Boeing hit the ground the US missile launch control satellite was passing over the region. If US have photos, they must show them.

10. Buk's photo was made in Krasnoarmeysk. And there are a lot of questions regarding it such as: What is that particular system? Where was it heading? From where was it moving? Where is the missing rocket? Who fired Buks last time? Case is not closed.

11. Russia's ministry of defence has never given any Buks or other AA systems to the rebels.

I'm not that invested in which flag those band of morons flew, but wouldn't it be funny if it was Ukrainian? We would have another Russian conspiracy to talk about! ;)

am personally more and more convinced about Russias direct involvement in conflict.if it wasn't the case at the beginning,only letting volunteers through border tho now,it seems Russia is getting involved directly.

wherever it should or shouldn't is another discussion. Amurica is involved in every single conflict in world at some extend and its been involved in most conflicts for decades.

i wouldn't blame or expect such big country like Russia not to fight for its national interests, especially when conflicts are at Russian border.

that would be naive.
anyway,more i read and see,more confused i am about all this.too much disinformation,propaganda,rhetoric,demagogy and double standards applied here.

something interesting,bid Russian MOD conference just took place:
zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1

Ukrainian army disturbing crash investigation:

theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/ukrainian-forces-assault-separatist-donetsk-mh17-torez

"There has been widespread international anger that the rebels have failed to allow proper access to the crash site to investigators, and suspicions that they have seized the black boxes and are attempting to destroy evidence.

But it was the Ukrainian army that seemed intent on disrupting expert work on Monday, as they apparently launched an offensive against rebel positions close to Donetsk railway station, as well as in other towns across the region."

Lysenko,deny this saying that some mysterious "self-organised group" of partisans forces fighting "terrorist" are shelling area of investigation.
well,why no worldwide condemnation for disturbing investigation now?

well well.Rebels BUK,quetly removed to Russia after MH-17 crash happens to be err..Ukrainian:
niqnaq.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/the-buk-launcher-supposedly-videod-scooting-off-to-russia-we-already-nailed-this-once

well set ups can happen, it's not entirely unheard of.
Hitler set up Poland by attacking Gliwice radio station

i could be all BS.
its hard to differ lies from truth at this point.tons of ppl,videos,"proofs"ect.



AND Now some lines from this divine for your minds whity,accurate article:

"Pledge our cooperation, but tell those idiots in Donetsk we want the black boxes in Moscow immediately"

"Make sure the crash site belongs to us and no one else"

"Except Strelkov, who has said the plane was full of dead bodies"

"No, we have not allowed anyone near the crash site, but we can't hold it off forever"

and now we learn,rebels allow investigators,who are being shelled by UKRAINIAN ARMY,handed over area of investigation,Strelkov BS debunked long ago,and black boxes are in Malaysian officers hand not in Moscow

you guys got any more BS?its good laugh ...more demagogy more lies please,bit more drama as well