Ukraine Crisis... Poland... and the way i see it

clearly

The situation is much more complex that self-declared experts pretend, however two wrongs do not make a right.


If you try you may get there start with explaining how his removal was legitimate

Once again, i am asking you to enlighten us on the facts. Perhaps after sharing your wisdom we will be able to understand and see things clearer.

What do you make of the draconian laws? Were those constitutional?

Did you mean voting of Presidiums of Supreme Counceils of USSR and RSFSR in 1954?

Small note - according to articles 14 and 31 of Constitution of USSR such question was out of competence of people who vote for it.

As stated above several times, you need to explain how his removal was legitimate that the point. Your bluster and excuses dont make his removal legal. The annexation of Crimea was not legimitate I'm sure there are those willing to argue that there was "no other way" which is the core of your argument. If such an argument is good enough for you why is it not good enough for others?

I have never said that his removal was constitutional. But, what good is a constitution, if the president has spent that past three years building his empire to his needs, abolishing democracy and freedom of speech? You still have not answered my question as to what you make of the draconian laws.

If you were a tiny bit aware of what happened during Euromaidan, you would know that towards the middle of January 2014, less and less people went to the Maidan. It seemed that everything was going back to normal until Yanukovich approved the draft on the draconian laws. It was only then when protests became really violent because people simply had enough. Yanukovich was about to take the little bit democracy that was left completely away.

You can ride on your "due process was not followed" horse for as long as you want. Due process only works when you live in a democratic country. With his own laws, Yanukovich himself took away his right for the "due process". You can not stick to the constitution, hope for fair, open and transparent elections, if the president dismantles every single piece of democracy.

You are either not able to understand it or not willing to understand it.

We already understand from your posts, that there is two kinds of countries. Democratic and non-democratic. And we understand that in democratic countries laws is mandatory for everyone, and in non-democratic ones laws may be ignored as it may be convenient.

But now let's return to main question, who will judge, democratic their country or not? Does every citizen allowed to decide yourself, or there is some world government department that should be requested about it?

Its good we agree that his removal was illegitimate.


What I cant understand is an argument based on "there was no other way" a stance adopted when there is a lack of legitimacy which you accept your argument lacks.

I have given you plenty of reasons as to why there was no other way. If you would take the time to respond to my reasoning, instead of repeating that my arguments lack foundation, this discussion would actually have a chance of going somewhere.

It won't go anywhere, because Barney simply cannot do that.

Jolly
You were talking about how you dislike propaganda now after several pages you eventually agree that what you weretyping was propaganda. The president was removed without due process and all you could say was that there was no other way, an argument without foundation used by every tinpot despot since time began. Now you wish to discuss the reasoning of how you came to your opinion, I dont care what your reasoning is the simple fact is that if due process is not followed the excuses are only propaganda.

Its similar to yesterday when you denied that Yats had said what he did and typed a load of nonsense

You are confusing facts with propaganda. The draconian laws are not some sort of propaganda. They were reality, passed on the 16th and signed by Yanukivich on the 17th of January 2014.

I wish you all the best riding the "due process" horse. Once again you have killed a conversation by being completely oblivious to the facts that surround you.

@ Harry, i guess you were right. This conversation is indeed going nowhere and therefore not worth my time.

Clearly you dont understand the importance of the rule of law.

Really Barney, now you're a supporter of apartheid?! Events such as the Sharpeville massacre were carried out in defense of 'the law' and in accordance with 'the law', but I'm amazed to see you supporting the disgraceful actions of the SA police.

Ok, ok... We understand now, and will not bother anymore about ukrainian 'laws'.

yea yea..but... but...apardhaid ....errr ...and the Sharpeville massacre

The point is that an abhorrent regime that doesn't allow any way to change can legitimately be challenged violently this was not the situation in Ukraine suggesting that there is any similarity between Ukraine and apartheid South Africa is mad.

In Ukraine there was a mechanism in place to remove the president which wasn't followed, all that Jolly has given is excuses as to why this was necessary excuses that he doesn't allow others to use. It was a foolish argument as it was always going to cut both ways.

The removal of democracy was done by those leading the coup. The nazi battalions fighting for poverty are not a true manifestation of the Ukrainian people given the election results yet are given freedom to do as they wish that is undemocratic, The junta signing up for Austerity before elections was not democratic. The coup has changed nothing it has made things worse.

and it was predictable..bunch of neonationalist thugs trying to build neonationalistic state out of multicultural and multiethnical country...
idiots got surprised when people rebelled...phosphorus and ballistic missiles not helping to resolve problem... what now?
now time to starve them, 10 milion of people...idiots

And yet again reality flies in the face of one of Barney's statements!


The mechanism was to impeach the president. However, there was no need to impeach the president, because he had already abandoned his post and failed to carry out the commitments which all parties had given in order to end the then current state of events. All that needed to be done was to select a replacement who would carry out the duties of the president.


Yawn. I wonder if you are ever going to learn that you are simply not to change reality simply by repeating your fantasies.


Quite right: Ukrainian people exist, while 'nazi battalions fighting for poverty' are just a product of your fevered imagination.


Oh dear, there you go again, trying to change a democratically elected government into a junta purely by the strength and repetition of your fantasies.

I would really advise you to take a deeper look into Yanukovich's time as president, the changes of law that went through while he was in power. The first thing he did was to give the president more power. That was literally his first action, almost making parliament completely obsolete. What followed after was a slow process of him building himself a state that would only serve him and the people around him. He orchestrated a trial that would send his biggest opponent to prison for 7 years followed by a ban on politics after her release, making sure that she would not be able to run for president for at least 15 years. Of course, while she was in jail the proscecutors (all young graduates favored by Yanukovich), tried to trial her even further.

You need more of these "excuses"?

You still haven't said anything regarding the draconian laws. Probably because you don't even know what happened there either.

Jolly
There is no point discussing the relative merits of Ukrainian politicians they are all corrupt. The debate should be has the coup made things better or worse. I believe it has made things much worse than they would otherwise have been, the failure to implement austerity will have implications, who will lend money? At the moment the IMF are breaking their own rules as is the EU by lending without systemic change. If Russia calls in its debt who is going to bail them out? Who is going to pay the bills?

No one has gone before the people advocating austerity explaining what it will mean for the average person no one has confronted the super rich and no one will because the super rich either are the politicians or own the politicians. This forced change has destroyed the country.

How that? Leading EU and NATO powers are involved in Ukrainian crisis same way as they were in crisis in former Yugoslavia.

Let me show you something. Please, follow me. Here is the statement of Czech Lt. Col. Marek Obrtel, who recently returned the military medals he received from NATO, says that ``genocide against Serbs`` took place in Kosovo.



Let me just underline, that all what was now confirmed by this Czech colonel, Polish parliament already confirmed, years ago, back in 1999, when started NATO invasion onto Yugoslavia/Serbia due to crisis in Kosovo. Even then investigating commission of Polish parliament confirmed that are Serbs right and that they suffer historical and scandalous injustice by NATO.

JollyRomek, my questions to you would be - Do you believe that would somebody from NATO ever face trial in International court of justice for this what was done to Serbs? Do you think that would International court of justice ever conduct investigation against NATO (and EU) for crimes against Serbs? Finally, do you believe that would NATO and EU ever compensate Serbs for injustice and material and moral damage that they suffered? Do you believe that would NATO now return to Serbian state control over 15% of its territory in regions Kosovo and Metohija that now NATO/EU holds under its occupation?

What is the point of these questions? World in which we live in have no order. International order and sovereignty of states has been violated. NATO and EU leading powers did it. Now, those powers destroyed balance of power in Ukraine.


West of Europe and USA didn`t fuel anger of Ukrainian people. You are right here. They fueled anger of some particular layer of Ukrainian society. Layer of society that has history of affinity to pro-Germanic Nazi ideology. So, we got violence in Ukraine. What is interesting, layer of society, internal element that initiated destruction of Yugoslavia was also pro-Germanic Nazi oriented and also was stimulated by west of Europe and USA.

As for Yanukovich. What to tell you. What we all sow is that ethnic Russians within Ukraine actually didn`t especially defend him, to say, they just let him fall. Why? Man was obviously corrupt. While ethnic Russians obviously themselves wanted changes in Ukraine, they wanted to be asked about level and form of changes. They were not asked. In other words, why then we got war in Ukraine when more or less all people there wanted progressive changes within society? War happened because west of Europe and USA wanted war to happen. See, honest and real energy for changes within Ukrainian society was actually hijacked by NATO and EU leading powers. Same as they did in Yugoslavia. Ukraine was pushed in bloody violence, same as Yugoslavia.


partially? Its all about money flow. Ukraine existed in some balance between powers. That balance was destroyed and you got competition of world powers above the heads of people there.

@Velund, I like your endless attempts to equal neo-soviet crooks and dalai lama or any western leaders. You might have started with how legally and democratically they were elected and that's where you could have put a period. :)

What is truly beyond my grasp however is that why can't you and others of your ilk understand for that long that the path you chose had already led you to a failed state? I mean you apparently have means to travel, you can read literature in English... what prevents you from realizing a simple fact: Putin's Russia, a direct heir of Eltsyn's Russia is a failed state and it' only a matter of time when it falls apart.

i am sad to see that many people here on this forum simple choosing to take sides. In process, facts and reality have been ignored. Participants in discussion focusing only on attempts to prove that are their political favorites right. Its discussing how political conflicts and antagonisms that exist among countries, in daily politics, founding its foothold among forum members.

i thought that people who prefer to enter in discussions on internet forums like this one, would rather tend to be open-minded, ready to learn and even to admit when they mistaking. but no. Seams that, as i said, people just choosing their sides and that`s it.

There is nothing new or original in your sentence. ;) It was repeated time to time, for centuries, in different languages. But be sure, Russia will catch a cold on a funeral of the ill-wishers. ;)

"The Russian state has the advantage over the other, that it is controlled directly by God, otherwise it is impossible to understand how it exists."

- Burkhard Christoph von Münnich (1683 - 1767)

As Czech Lt. Col. Marek Obrtel said, after returning its medals received from NATO stuff: ``NATO is a criminal organization``. Let us beg on our knees (what else we can do), ruling magnates of NATO to spare lives of Slavic children.

i beg on my knees.

I was wondering where you took your lunetic ideas about Ukraine from but here we go..........

So Slava Donbassa, Slava Rossiya, Slava Novorossiya!

And when you have nothing left to eat you come crawling back. Just like the people of Sloviansk did when they realized that "Rossiya" was not going to feed them.

No, mate I expected that you would embark on a the same old chitchat about everlasting Russian State since that is accurately what you have been taught by state-owned media for the last 10-13 years. Yet, that same inert thinking prevents you from realizing that even 'dedi' who fought in WW2 is an altogether diverse nation from what you're at the moment, not to say about the Russian Empire. So I was talking about the Soviet and post-Soviet era.


oh my goodness... :) I have a misfortune to witness the God-bearer nation and its achievements daily which makes me think that God is not a good manager.

Maybe, but looking into history - it is great experimenter. ;) If you don't want to be a "guinea pig", you can flee, but if you decide to stay there - you can be sure that you'll suffer from everything but not from boredom. ;)

It won't be long now until they tell us that Putin is God himself.......