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Let's debate American Politics


johnny reb
30 Jun 2017  #151

I really have no clue what's going to happen

Have you ever watched the movie "Grapes of Wrath" ?
Sorry sir, no more credit.
What do you think is going to happen when the children's cars are taken away because there is no extra money for the car payment or insurance and they are forced to walk to school ?

No money for their cell phone service or fast food.
And they have never been taught how to peel a potato or work at a job.
What do you think is going to happen ?
This is why Trump is trying to boot all able bodied workers off the $gravy train$.
Dirk diggler
30 Jun 2017  #152

@johnny reb

I have not seen that movie. Anyway I hope their cars, phones and all that crap is taken away.. But it probably won't be. I use to be jealous of the kids in college that didn't have to work and had seemingly unlimited funds for anything. Not anymore for quite a while though. When they graduate the only way they can get a job is either by taking some b.s. entry level job or a job their parents got them. In either case they're in for a rude awakening and are often less successful than the kids who worked throughout high school and college.

Couple more hours till year 3 of no budget in Illinois... Junk rating here we go! This could be a good time to short vanguard etf.

Illinois also got rid of various large lotteries like the Powerball and such. Apparently its a cash flow issue. How someone could run a cash cow into the ground like that is beyond me...
Lyzko
30 Jun 2017  #153

I repeat, and shall continue to do so, that if illness doesn't discriminate, why should doctors? Once upon a time, not all that far back either, professionals across the board simply clenched their teeth, swore IN PRIVATE (F-bomb and all!!LOL), but grinned in public and bore the slings and arrows of outrageously lower fees than they were used to, because they all knew it was the only right, humane, and just thing to do!! Everybody wants to be Rockefeller, yet mature folks know we all can't be, therefore, be grateful with whatcha have, keep your smaller apartment for a while and quit taking it out on the patient, client, customer etc.

Nowadays, everybody wants THEIR way, all the time. It's not realistic, Johnny! It's plain anti-historical, that's all!
Dirk diggler
30 Jun 2017  #154

@Lyzko

In the us most people who become doctors do it for the money and prestige, less and less do it for altruistic reasons.

Also not all diseases are nondiscriminatory. Some of the most common health problems people in the us have such as diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, liver disease etc are due to poor diet, lack of excercise, smoking, etc. I made the choice to smoke cigarettes so I can't really expect for society to pay for issues I have later in life because of my decision.
johnny reb
30 Jun 2017  #155

I repeat, and shall continue to do so,

I know, I know,,,,,,,,,pity us.

Nowadays, everybody wants THEIR way, all the time. It's not realistic,

YES YES YES !
I think you finally got it Skippy !
How long have I preached to you that participation trophies that you bleeding heart liberals insist on are worthless.
How many times have I said that we all can't be the winner of the Kentucky Derby.
And the best one is that you Liberals still actually think Crooked Hillary won. LOL
SO you are totally correct when you say; Nowadays, everybody wants THEIR way, all the time. It's not realistic.
HA, I think you are starting to see the light.
Bless you son.
Lyzko
30 Jun 2017  #156

You're agreeing for the incorrect reasons, Johnny!! People want their way, unfortunately, it's the WRONG WAY!!!!

@Dirk,

I take it now you're one of those people who honestly believes that everyone is where they are (or aren't) by sheer choice, is that right? Tell someone who works their butt off but isn't making ends meet etc. that it's their choice to be miserable!! Does that really make sense???! We've let ourselves off the hook of fulfilling our roles as humans and in so doing, have short circuited the human experience by essentially trying to make everyday life one big pleasure trip, one joyride through paradise on Earth, with no problems, no difficulties, no hardship... no empathy!! Sounds like the pod people from "Invasion of The Body Snatchers" all over again and I'm the Kevin McCarthy character screaming like a crazed loon, warning people against the Apocalypse.

Geezloueez, that Werner Erhard character behind the EST (Erhard Seminar Training) in the 70's and early '80's must have been a Republican, to be sure, a super low life!!!
NoToForeigners
30 Jun 2017  #157

Funny things are happening in that hospital in the USA. Cool all had firearms so they could stop the madman lololo
Dirk diggler
30 Jun 2017  #158

@Lyzko

Lyszko I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you read my posts you'll see that I clearly wrote I have nothing but the upmost respect for working people regardless of their occupation. My issue lies with the people who enjoy far better standards than the factory worker, McDonald's fry cook, mall cashier, etc even though they don't work and simply live off the government. Even worse they teach their kids to do the same.

However at the same time I don't tolerate laziness or ineptitude. There's no reason why an able bodied even mildly intelligent person cant better their situation. I went from stacking tiles for minimum wage and waiting tables to working decent paying corporate jobs within about 12 years. I worked full time in college - I delivered pizzas on Saturday nights when most people were partying. If I can do it so can any other able bodied person. The problem is too many people rather just complain about their personal situation than do something about it. I can totally understand the Mexican immigrant with 4 kids that has to mow lawns or clean houses to make ends meet. However then that immigrants descendants have no excuse to fall into the same situation especially if his or her parents already sacrificed themselves and lived a crumby life working long hours for little pay there's no reason why the kids have to also have that same kind of life.

Even now yes I complain that too much of my income is going towards taxes without any decent services in return. However where many people would be comfortable complaining about the situation I am doing something about it.
johnny reb
30 Jun 2017  #159

People want their way, unfortunately, it's the WRONG WAY!!!!

Exactly, they are called "Democrats".
Lyzko
30 Jun 2017  #160

I don't tolerate laziness or ineptitude masquerading as Affirmative Action either, Dirk! The idea though that smokers and others necessarily bring it on themselves is the concept with which I was taking issue:-) No offense meant.

@Johnny, the "wrong" way is what I am dead set against, and you know dang well what I mean. You've only grown up after the glow of the New Deal Era had her last gleaming, and so are perhaps blissfully unaware of how great things were, when there was true "freedom" for the average American to be as average as he or she wanted to be and no legal power in the US could stop 'em!

We know of course that ever since the end of the Cold War, there's seen to be no longer any need to protect the US-citizen as Germany, France, Israel etc. protect theirs! If Americans are considered disposable, graded on a new type of score card as to what dollar sign they show, then it's got nothing to do with a doctor or lawyer going into practice to make money, not to do their job as altruistic mentors and care givers, it's got to do with false values promoted by a post-Reagan society!! Making money's important, as important to me as to anyone, but it's not the ONLY reason to make a decent vs.an indecent living.

And that's why we're going to hell in a hand basket. Tough to play by hypocritical, non-existent rules which apply only to the poor and not the rich. Any way I or any middle-class American can finagle to get what they deserve has become fair game, and don't y'all forget it:-)
johnny reb
30 Jun 2017  #161

New Deal Era

Short lived by a war that FDR created which eventually end in the Great Recession. BFD !
And you are actually proud of such a failure ?

And that's why we're going to hell in a hand basket.

So tell us why Lyzko......no I'll save you your twisted b.s.
The reason why (take Illinois for example) is because you Dumocrats can't get it thru your thick heads that tax and spend does not work.
Lyzko
30 Jun 2017  #162

Why ought the rich pay less than a secretary? Still haven't come up with a solid answer though, have ya? No. And that's 'cuz there ain't one and yer hoppin' made 'cuz ya know I'm right! That's not socialism, that's just common sense:-)
Dirk diggler
30 Jun 2017  #163

@Lyzko

What I meant by smokers, which I and both parents are, having to pay higher rates seems only fair to me. The three of us made the decision to partake in an activity that's very detrimental to health. Its no ones fault that we smoke. We can only blame ourselves for the consequences of smoking cigarettes. I can't expect society to pay for diseases I have later in life thanks to my decision to smoke.

Now a person who has brain cancer or some other condition that's not his or her fault deserves care from the society's health care plan whether it may be Obama Care or the new Trump care or whatever the care is in another country for citizens. I think that the people who have an illness uncaused by personal decisions and lifestyles ought to be treated first.
Dirk diggler
30 Jun 2017  #164

@Lyzko

So if a person uses a dirty needle or perhaps refuses to use condoms and catches hiv were supposed to treat him the same as someone who caught hiv during a blood transfusion. Im not saying that person should be left to rot with no medicine. However in that case he made a terrible decision and society shouldn't be punished for an individual's bad decision. Its the same with cigs. I made the decision to smoke cigarettes even though I know the health risks and to me it would seem unfair for you and johnny (assuming you're both non smokers) to pay for my dumb decision.

Well the rich pay more taxes on income... Its capital gains off investments where the rich really make their money and that's a totally different tax scheme.

The Secretary too can make a good amount of money by saving and investing. I managed to pay off my bachelors by working and investing all my money while living a very Spartan existence. That's why I mean that any able bodied person can advance their situation if they are focused and committed to make certain changes and sacrifices. Even just eating out less during the week or cutting down on certain luxuries will free up some money which can be used to invest whether its into a mutual fund to make some extra cash or investing in education so that the person can get a better job later.
Lyzko
30 Jun 2017  #165

Tough call, though! When we, respectively, medical professionals, start picking and choosing who's "worthier" of what quality of treatment, that's where we get into some awfully dicey waters:-) Unless there's a general, across-the-board, rock solid, unimpeachable standard of care, as there was when my parents were younger, occasional greed and quackery notwithstanding, we cannot be said to be living in a civilized society, rather in a sham.

When my wife was born in 1968, she was delivered in New York Hospital, a PUBLIC facility for all New Yorkers. Her neighbor right in the next room was the granddaughter of Irving Berlin.

Try to imagine a la John Lennon Beyoncé's kid being born in the same hospital as the average person. In fact, there IS no difference, there WAS no difference even way back then, between my wife and Irving Berlin's granddaughter. Today, the distinction is real, it exists, even though it's artificial and meaningless. Every one wants in their heart to be No.One. Back then, people wanted to as well, but knew they probably couldn't and so there was a greater degree of social standard, if not exactly "peace" LOL
Dirk diggler
30 Jun 2017  #166

@Lyzko

Oh I don't mean that people with the illness should receive different care in general anyway. However I do believe that for example a drunkard who has a failing liver shouldn't receive that liver over someone who got liver cancer in a way that wasn't his or her fault. Its similar with footing the bill - should society pay to help that drunkard or should he pay for his own mistakes. To me its simple - one has to take responsibility for their own actions and that seems to be declining everyday in America. Perhaps we could help him get on the right path and society can pay a portion of his rehab, but he should be left to dig himself out of his own whole. Otherwise that person may never learn if society just keeps bailing him out every time he drinks his liver to the point of failure.

One of the main reasons why people do receive different care is money. Its the same in us Canada poland etc. If someone goes to a private doctor with some condition they will receive care far quicker and probably better care than say with zus. The growth of private medicine has helped spur this divide. Nonetheless people who can't afford private medicine still have access to public and I don't think that should be taken away from them. At the same time though if someone wishes to spend their hard earned money on say botox injections or a nose job that's up to them. However I don't think taxpayers should foot the bill for cosmetic procedures. Nonetheless the taxpayers had to pay 250k for that one private I believe Bradley/Chelsea manning to change his sex to female .... While in prison nonetheless..

So basically yes it does get dicey if were debating what procedures a tax payer should cover and what they shouldn't for society. Im not saying to not completely help that drunkard with a failing liver. I can totally be fine with giving him pills and sending him to rehab but to give him a liver and pay for it when someone has a failing liver which they didn't destroy themselves I believe that person takes precedence over the drunkard.
Lyzko
30 Jun 2017  #167

Be wary too of the drunkard example, Dirk! The moral image we tend to attach to those who've fallen through the cracks, gone on the skids etc. has little to do with the experience of such people, about whom most of us know precious little:-) The Bible teaches us all not to judge another until we've walked many miles in his shoes.

Let us look upon him as the same human being as we. After all, as I was trying to explain to Johnny (but to no avail, I fear), we may be unequal as people, we're ALL EQUAL as human beings. We belong each of us to different locals, but we're all members of the same union!
Dirk diggler
30 Jun 2017  #168

@Lyzko

Well drunkard, cig smoker like myself, hard drug user, obese due to terrible diet and lack of exercise, etc. Its all personal choices that people made knowing they're harmful activities. If I walk in my own shoes as a smoker i can say that quite frankly I don't think society should have to foot the bill for the day I get lung cancer or emphysema or whatever. Maybe a box of chantix to help a smoker quit but if they refuse to change their ways why should a society be forced to constantly rescue such a person. Perhaps a 1 2 3 strike policy wouldn't be bad. Example a drug addict goes to rehab and society pays once, drug addict relapses society pays a second time, drug addict relapses again now he should pay for his treatment. Perhaps then he would realize that he won't always be bailed out and he'll have to take responsibility for his action. Same with say an obese person maybe give them Lipo that could save their life once, twice, along w counseling and sessions with a dietician but if that person keeps stuffing their face with fast food perhaps we should move onto another person suffering with obesity and try to help them over someone we couldn't help despite 2 attempts and no effort to change.

Like I said I think we should help those people but we can't do everything for them or give them infinite chances. Otherwise they may never learn. Give the addict or obese person treatment but up.to a point. Eventually the training wheels must come off.

Again though just difference of opinion.

One of the issues is that so much money is being taken out of Medicare which old people desperately need and given to Medicaid which is insurance for people on welfare or other government subsidies. I'm not saying that they shouldn't get any insurance but perhaps if they went to work and paid for Obama Care/trump care or their employer subsidized plan then seniors wouldnt suffer.

There's a huge budget crisis all over America and only so mucbtreatment available. If funds were infinite then sure perhaps give that drunkard or obese person a million chances. But we can't do that because of limited funds. Hence id hate to see someone receive treatment for something they've caused to their own body and have no intention of changing their habits over treatment that an old person should receive. And that's exactly what's happening with money being taken out of Medicare that seniors deserve more than anyone after most paying taxes their whole lives and given into Medicaid which is given to those on government support so definitely not taxpayers or people significantly contributing financially into the system
Lyzko
30 Jun 2017  #169

During the Great Depression, people from nearly every class, save for the Hollywood set (who were among the only ones with money and working!) died on the streets of our cities. They had no safety net, no one except for either the church/temple, if they were luck enough to belong to one, they had no future in the event of illness or job loss.

Ever wondered WHY so many people drank, frequently to death? I trust we don't desire a return to those times. Germany's poverty brought them Hitler. Ours the rising, powerful KKK and Huey Long!

Something to ponder, friend:-)
Dirk diggler
1 Jul 2017  #170

@Lyzko

That scenario isn't too much different to the way it is now. Atleatst people won't die though due to our social net. Thags what a social safety net is for but unfortunately far too many people abuse it.

For the young, educated and/or well heeled due to increased communication and transport since those times one can now easily move to a more friendly work and family environment. I am actually in the process of doing just that. People are leaving my city in droves because the work environment is God awful. The wages aren't all that much higher than in states around mine but at least the taxes are reasonable.

The kkk actually existed far before the great depression. It was basically confederates who banded together at first. Although yes in the 20s 30s and up to around the 50s they were a major political force.
johnny reb
1 Jul 2017  #171

Why ought the rich pay less than a secretary?

Because the secretary isn't investing millions of dollars in a business that pays half her social security, gives her sick day pay, gives her a pension, gives her health care benefits, gives her a Christmas bonus, (all of which she pays no taxes on) pays all kinds of insurance on his business, pays property tax on his business, pays utilities on his business, pays maintenance on his business, pays bookkeepers, pays interest on the loan for his business, pays a payroll, pays ton of over head....that's why Mr. Simpleton.

Are you really that dark Lyzko ?

The kkk actually existed far before the great depression.

Yes and they were Democrats that were the original members who started the KKK.
Now for the love of Mary can we PLEEZ get back on topic !
(Doubtful as it seems very hard for some people to stay focused)
Dirk diggler
1 Jul 2017  #172

@johnny reb

Little correction: actually that Xmas bonus would most likely be taxed at the 40% luxury tax rate. Also sick day pay is typically subject to income tax like any other work day. If the boss is paying his secratary in cash though obviously itd be different.

@Lyzko

Also most rich people esp the business types and not merely trustafarians are very clever and hence pay as little tax as possible. The tax they pay on income is small because say you own a company and officially you pay yourself a salary of 50k a year on the books. Well in that case you'll pay a similar tax as the secratary. Where rich people make their wealth is through stocks bonds forex and other investments which are taxed as capital gains. Now while you can criticise low capital gains tax, that same secratary can greatly boost her personal income and net worth through saving her money, putting it into investments which would be subject to the exact same capital gains tax percentages. It doesn't take a wall street trader to pick a good investment. A little reading and personal analysis of candlestick charts and someone could easily make significant passive income or if stocks aren't your thing even swapping your home for a 3 flat and renting out 2 of the units - that covers your mortgage and leaves you with profit too. That secratary can save her profit, add a little savings from her income, and reinvest. She can invest in things that bring her immediate profit or in things like a higher education so she can move up the ladder. Before long she too will have a good income, a good passive income, an education and she too will then be figuring out how to pay the least tax possible. It takes time and sacrifice but like I said too many people are lazy and its easier to just complain about your current situation than make something of it. This may be harder if the secratary has kids or sick parents or whatever, but definitely not impossible.
Lyzko
1 Jul 2017  #173

@Johnny, your reasoning's faulty! Certainly, "rich people" should pay taxes, only it ought to be their fair share based upon earning, not merely self-conscious assumptions of privilege. Furthermore, the gap I spoke of, prior to Saint Ronald The Paton Saint of Homelessness, was far less than now. In addition, it's the millionaire's choice to boost those profits, not the secretary's choice necessarily to become a secretary:-)
johnny reb
1 Jul 2017  #174

Over half the people in America pay no tax at all. (besides cigarette and alcohol taxes)
These are the poor people that bleeding heart Lyzko talks about.
These are the people that get $3500 unearned income credit for themselves and each child. (Plus full blown welfare)
How does someone who puts no tax money in the bank be allowed to have those who did have their money distributed to those who didn't ?????

(Re distribution of wealth)
Yet he uses a secretary for an example that pays minimum taxes.
He refuses to talk about the upper 1% that pay over 95% of the countries taxes.
How could anyone get so brainwashed.
Lyzko
1 Jul 2017  #175

It isn't I who's been brainwashed, sir! You're talking to the man who, as a college student no less, actually withdrew from an economics class because the professor proposed in earnest a one-hundred percent flat inheritance tax for anyone earning as relatively modestly as $50,000 a year!

It seemed crazy then, it seems crazy now!

So much for labeling people liberalsLOL
Dirk diggler
1 Jul 2017  #176

@johnny reb

Funny my real estate agent came by for drinks last night. He told me how he brokered an apartment lease that was section 8. The lady balked at the 1300 a month price because section 8 would only pay like 1180 towards it and shed have to pay $120 in rent. Eventually the owner agreed to lower it by $100 meaning the lady only pays $20 a month for rent with taxpayers footing the rest. Well she signed the lease, they shook hands, and my agent escorted her to the $70k Lexus suv her husband was waiting in. Now this guys been working his whole life and has to make due with a Toyota Camry while this lady complains about $120 a month shed have to pay for renting a 3 bedroom apartment.

Now add all the other things she gets for free - free gas, free electric, free water, free cell phone plan, free food, free health insurance, and most likely cash assistance too because you can bet that Lexus isn't in her name and on paper her and her husband are divorced.

Perhaps the rest of us really are schmucks. Why work when you can just sit in a big 3 bedroom apartment with literally everything paid for by taxpayers
johnny reb
1 Jul 2017  #177

All I can say is that their day is coming and it is coming soon.
All these welfare fcks are in for a very rude awakening when it all gets cut off to them.
Trump is trying as hard as he can to end it.
They will not even know how to feed themselves more less take a shower under a broken eve trough.
This is why living up in the mountains of Jamaica has humbled me to watch people survive without money, no electricity, no running pipe water, no hot water to bath, no cell phone, no toilet paper, no grocery stores, no Kentucky Fried, no car and all the rest of the luxuries of life that so many take for granted and get for free.

When I go I always take a huge box of tide laundry soap and give to the women which excites them like little kids at Christmas.

All my dirty cloths will be washed and folded with theirs until that box of soap is empty at the end of two or three weeks.

Think it's no big deal ?
Here is a very simple test........just try going without hot water for one week.
Let me know how you did.
Once welfare runs out for many able bodied people the guns will come out because they will have no free place to live, not know how to feed themselves and be crying how they have been cheated and deserve yours.
Dirk diggler
1 Jul 2017  #178

Look like Illinois hasn't passed a budget by the midnight deadline. Madigan asked for an extension so bonds aren't downgraded to junk status.

Even if they pass a budget its not going to change anything. Madigan and the dems are asking for another 5 bil tax hike. People are tapped out and so are businesses. Illinois owes more money than the market cap of the 4 largest companies - allstate insurance, boeing, caterpillar and I forgot the 4th one. 5 bill is a drop in the bucket when you owe hundreds of billions. Now a federal judge ordered Illinois to pay around 270 mil a month just to cover Medicaid because they were behind on their bills.

Yet the teachers union still wants a higher salary further rewarding failure (we have the worst schools by far of any major us city but yet the highest paid teachers and most money spent per student), the dems still want to increase property taxes so basically no middle income person can afford a home in an area where there aren't daily shootings, and more businesses will shut down and people like myself that can only take so many tax increases are leaving.
Joker
1 Jul 2017  #179

Madigan asked for an extension so bonds aren't downgraded to junk status.

This is why we need term limits. Madigan has been in power for too long! I`ll vote for Rauner just to stop him!

(we have the worst schools by far of any major us city but yet the highest paid teachers and most money spent per student),

They can't get fired either, its a joke!

Cut off their pension $$ I don't want my tax money paying for them anymore.
Dirk diggler
1 Jul 2017  #180

@Joker

Its mostly property taxes that funds cps not like state income tax for example. As well as some money they recently took out of lotto. The big argument now is dems agreeing to freezing a property tax hike (as rauner wanted ) but then the state would have to give some money to cps.

That would all be fine except that the state is tapped out. We need more charter schools here - they do an exponentially better job teaching students and preparing them for college with literally half the funds per student. One survey stated that only 8% of cps hs seniors are prepared for college

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