Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades

@Paulina
Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Not hard to understand. If they were, the war would already be over. Don't think for a second, that Poland isn't using this war to try to manipulate more out of the USA. Politics is being played on multiple fronts. Poland wants new planes from the US more than anything.

You are right though. Plenty of planes still flying over Ukraine with Ukraine markings, it would either be a miracle that that have not been shot down or they have been replenished supplies already from somewhere. Russia is losing, they leave their bodies in the streets for wild dogs. This is Russia and this is just another example of why they must be once and for all reduced to a smaller pile of $hi* than they already are.

Can't you see that there is no real analogy here, Paulina? No analogy because there is no balance of power. We live in a brutal world - Russia can do this because they have nuclear weapons, so their existence as a country is pretty much safe (what kind of existence it will be is a completely different matter). Moral superiority is a great thing but pretty much useless when there are nuclear missiles flying your way. I don't want to have the words "They were right in the argument and had obvious moral superiority" written on my family's grave.


No, no - you haven't been listening carefully to what the Pentagon is saying, Paulina: they won't do it beause NATO is not a side in this conflict. That's why they want Poland to do it on her own. How nice.


No. Poland wants to get out of this mess without being nuked more than anything. If NATO/US is afraid to deliver those planes, then why are they trying to manipulate Poland into delivering them on our own?

I am quite sure that a lot of American housewives would shed a tear, watching an atomic mushroom over a Polish city on TV. But I am also quite sure about the exact number of nuclear missiles fired at Russia in retaliation by the US/NATO in such scenario.

Wondering whether to start another thread for this, I'll start putting links here.

Best resource I've found lately on what's going on in Russia (short story - nothing very good).

Here's an amazing thread on how the economy works and Russia, despite its huge intellectual potential... can't really make anything (short story - it's economy is controlled by mafias who can't run anything complex).

Read and be amazed....

twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388

So? I'm not sure what's your point...


So does NATO. Maybe NATO should finally grow some balls? Putin is doing what he's doing, because he thinks NATO doesn't have any. Do you think Putin wants Russia to get nuked by NATO? I doubt it...


But Poland is in NATO :)))

I don't care. I am not on your side, dude. You attacked an independent country and your joke of an army is not only embarassing themselves but also killing civilians. My concern is the good of Poland - do not take it as support of your criminal regime.


If Putin, cornered and desperate, decides to "deescalate by escalation" and drops a nuke on a minor Polish city or two, guess what NATO will do. I'll give you a hint: the answer is most certainly not "nuke Russia back".

@GefreiterKania, I honestly doubt that Putin would drop a nuke anywhere just because NATO would provide some offensive weapons to Ukraine in a quiet and discrete manner and then deny everything, just like Russia has been doing it. It's a kind of proxy war already anyway, just like in Syria... Syria was getting weapons from Russia and Iran, so why shouldn't Ukraine be getting it from NATO?


Maybe he could get that cornered and desperate if NATO put boots on the ground in Ukraine. But besides that - I doubt it...

As I already wrote - countries can buy weapons from wherever they want, so what's the big deal? Ukraine has the right to defend itself - it's an independent country, not some separatist rebels - so, Ukrainians can get whatever weapons they want, for God's sake...

He won't cause his Generals and his Oligarchs would nip him in the bud. Then the question arises why are the west a bunch of pussies?

@amiga500, yeah, exactly... Maybe it's time to stop being those wussies, because we can see the effects... The Russian bear has become only bolder due to that and not appeased... If you're trying to "appease" an evil thug this is how it ends...

The Soviet-Afghan war was a proxy war. The West wasn't such gullible, naive wussies back then and the US was providing weapons to Afghans. The Soviet Union lost that war. It was the beginning of the end of the Soviet Union. The West won the Cold War, the Soviet Union lost it, despite being a superpower with nukes.

The West has to make Putin realise that if he won't be sane enough to withdraw from Ukraine and make some kind of reasonable agreement with Ukraine the West/NATO will give Russia "another Afghanistan" in the form of Ukraine and another "Cold War" that Russia will lose.

IMHO.

@Paulina
The US and NATO are not going to get involved directly because Ukraine is not a member. It really is that simple. The aid that NATO and the US have given is astounding not only in terms of volume but level of technology involved. It is the sole reason Ukraine is winning. Thats the bottom line. No matter how hard they fight, without the aid from USA and other NATO countries this would already be over.

@GefreiterKania
Your statements show your ignorance to the issues and to exactly how the Russian nuclear arms are controlled. Putin does not have a button like the US does. Putin would have to go through a chain of command that is five people deep before one nuke could be launched. It wont happen. Poland knows this and so does the US and NATO. This is exactly why the discussion over planes has been so public. Poland made it public, not the US.

There are a whole lot of US soldiers in Poland. I think maybe more than we know publicly. Yesterday and today, they are in Krakow on a few days leave. Ran into a dozen on out walking this morning, all Airborne Rangers. Not the pussies that Russia has, and you can see, these are combat veterans.

@PolAmKrakow, I know that Ukraine isn't a NATO member and therefore NATO won't get involved directly in this war - I live in Poland, you don't have to tell me that :)) I didn't write anywhere that NATO should get involved directly.


I realise that. Also, if it wasn't for NATO training (including from Poland) the Ukrainian special forces probably wouldn't be kicking Russian asses as much as they're doing that nowadays :)

Ukrainians are using the help that they got and which they're still getting very well :))

@Paulina
I did not mean to offend. The way you have asked questions of why certain things have not been done, was not understandable if you already knew NATO limitations. I understand it is easy to get emotional about this. I am emotional about it because I simply hate Russia as a nation and always have. Growing up having to practice hiding under your desk at school or going to the bomb shelter a couple times a year, can really stick with you. As an adult I have dealt with Russians a lot in business, and been threatened by them several times. None of them have done anything and they all talk tough but when faced with toughness they are all cowards really.

@mafketis
That Twitter thread was great. Very insightful, and very accurate IMO. Russian government and business based on my experience is run like the mob. Bribery, and anything else you can imagine is on the table. When a Russian cant "buy" of bribe his way into something they are completely dumbstruck, and they often have a completely puzzled look on their face when dealing with someone with integrity. While there are some highly intelligent people in Russia, they usually end up in jail or leaving Russia because they threaten the status quo just by existing.

The problem is Russia has no place for those who are both intelligent and honest. The intelligent and dishonest, and dumb (honest or dishonest) all find a place but both intelligent and honest... their best option is to leave ASAP... like Galeev himself... either he or his parents realized they have no future in the Russian Mafialand so his tremendous intellect is lost to Russia. Multiply that by thousands and tens of thousands and you have a country willfully becoming stupider and stupider...

I wouldn't say that I'm being terribly emotional about it. As a Gemini I can be objective and pretty coolheaded if needs be :)) I also don't hate Russian people or Russia. I simply think that you can't appease a thug endlessly. At some point you have to draw a line. By that I don't mean putting boots on the ground in Ukraine - that could start a WWIII, so I understand it's out of the question. But I think the West should be more assertive. And maybe more cunning - as Russia is.

How did I miss this?

Russia just nuked its own currency!

How humiliating is this?!?

twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1501315470057959424

Russia can't do autarky because they're too depend on non-Russian (specifically western) technology...

As much as it sucks to be Russian now... it's gonna get worse.... lots worse...

@Paulina
I can count on two hands the number of Russian people I have met that are not infected with systemic paranoia and corruption. And even in that group there are a few with tendencies to revert to corruption if needed. This is a cultural thing, it is not just our observing it. They will kill each other if needed, and they wont blink an eye about doing it. That said, if you believe the CIA is not on the ground in Ukraine then you likely also believe that the Grinch stole Christmas. lol

@mafketis
This is what the trolls here who speculate on the economy and business do not understand. Currencies are bought and sold every minute of every day. The Ruble was worthless outside of Russia to begin with, and inside Russia, the only thing that people understand is the $$$$ period. That's exactly why they just stopped all foreign currency sales. Trying to keep that money in a digital circulation is a very infantile attempt to stabilize their internal markets. I guarantee you the cost of a Samsung TV is double or triple what it was two weeks ago. Try buying import car parts, or an import car right now. The Russian wealthy are all connected to criminal enterprises in one way or another. Putin has been robbing the country blind and hiding the money in accounts controlled by the oligarchs. One of these, or several of these oligarchs will be his undoing. They will see an opportunity to seize his money and power and that will be the end of Putin. Exile or death, and death being most likely.

Looks like the Ukrainians are putting those stinger rockets to good use:

reuters.com/world/uk/uk-says-ukraines-air-defences-having-considerable-success-against-russian-jets-2022-03-09/

And after almost two weeks of war, Mariupol still stands.

Not NATO. Poland. That's the whole point. They want us to do this alone, as our own sovereign decision.

And you say that you doubt it would happen. What are you willing to bet on it? Your life? 100 lives? A small city? "I honestly doubt" is simply not enough.

His point is that you are stupid.
It is not about Mig's that wouldn't make much diffrence in that war. It is about taking part in the war. Zelensky would love it and in his place I would love it too.

NATO doesn't want war with Russia, so they are trying to push Poland under the bus. Some friends. lol!
Germany done nothing to close north stream one, paying Russia money they need to fight in Ukraine. France made a big show about some yacht but still is on Putin side. EU is still backstabing Poland with impunity and some Polish traitors in the lead of that attack - Ochojska is a scum.

@GefreiterKania
Get your facts straight. Poland made the announced plan without the US even knowing it was coming or seeking US approval. The US didn't ask Poland to do anything. You also obviously do not understand the nuclear structure in Russia and Putin does not have absolute power over nukes.

As I said would happen, Ukraine orders all exports of grain and meat to stop and be used for Ukraine people only. American farmers prepare to up wheat production and increase home storages, government buying of wheat stores will begin again shortly. And once again, the Russian trolls are wrong. Now, Russia will have only what they produce or can be produced in Belarus. Good luck feeding all Russians. Lets get a nice round of applause for the return of the ration cards once again, and long lines for government rations in Moscow. Any of you dumb F's remember the "Dollar" shopping malls where only the wealthy and international guest could shop? Look for those to return soon too. To all those with relatives in Russia, I hope you sent all the money you could before all those transactions were stopped, they sure will need it.

@Cojestdocholery
No one is back stabbing Poland. Poland put the idea out there and stepped on their own D*ck. The Mig idea is a Polish idea, and Ukraine request. Not once suggested by the US. All you have to do is look at the timeline, and the US only said they supported and did not object to Poland supplying planes. They at no time made the idea their own and at no time committed to sending replacement planes. This is exactly why Ukraine pilots were in Poland a week ago to pick up planes that Poland was talking about and no one else. Then when Poland was told no replacement planes were available the deal fell through. So now Poland wanted to sent he planes to the US to be given to Ukraine, Polands idea to drag the US into the war. So get the facts straight.

No thanks to Germany. Your friend Putin is not doing that well. Send him more money - he can kill more civilians - you have a lot of expirence in such cooperation.


You get it stright, they said they have given Poland a green light to send those Migs to Ukraine.

Interesting....

In 13 days Russia has lost more tanks (documented cases) than in all the Soviet-Aghan war....

twitter.com/unfriendlydata/status/1501232073239007232

Hey mafketis you are an American in Poland, right? You tell me if I'm right about USA and those Migs.

@Cojestdocholery
Here is a little news for you newsweek.com/nato-divided-polands-mig-29-offer-risks-widening-ukraine-war-1686193 Setting up the US and Germany to expand the war and drag all of NATO into it. That was the Polish idea. And I live in Krakow and get the local, national and international news like everyone else. I just dont buy into the BS many here are spreading.

"White House officials were "blindsided" by the proposal since it did not come up during Blinken's recent discussion in Poland, according to an Associated Press report citing a U.S. official familiar with the talks. The offer could be raised again on Wednesday, when Vice President Kamala Harris is set to travel to Poland to discuss the Ukraine conflict."

The EU is! Wake up!


Isn't NATO for that? What you need all those nukes for if you cannot do that much?

I have not followed American media at all about the invasion (too terrible and clueless) and haven't read every message about it here. Nonetheless, this is what I think (roughly). Not my idea I found it elsewhere but it seems likely:

Poland kept repeating it would not turn over MiGs to Ukraine, but the US kept saying they were working out a deal to do just that.

So, Poland, announced out of the blue, that they were willing to immediately send their MiG-29s to Germany, and then the US could do as they wished with them, presumably send them on to Ukraine from a US base.

The US was shocked - shocked! - that their Polish allies would give the US this hot potato, instead of the Poles accepting the risk of having the MiGs fly from Polish territory directly to Ukraine...

I'm American but US foreign policy is almost completely wrong on almost every issue and the US tends to bungle any foreign issue they get involved in.

@Cojestdocholery
Now you are talking out of your a$$. The EU is not back stabbing anyone. And you have nukes to deter these wars in your territory. Which is working. USA sending patriot missiles to Poland stripes.com/branches/army/2022-03-09/US-army-patriot-missile-batteries-moving-to-poland-5279549.html Definitely not the action of anyone back stabbing, it is the complete opposite.

All this BS about Poland being used or stabbed. Poland has more US troops now than ever before. More US firepower than ever before. More strength and security because of the US and NATO than ever before. Ukraine is not NATO, and NATO has done and will do all it can. And you can be sure if one shell or bomb hits any NATO ally, that they will go in and clean house.

@mafketis
It was a Polish idea! Period. WTF would the US try to tell Poland to send its only fighter planes to Ukraine if there were nothing to replace them. This was Poland trying to get the latest planes for themselves from the US and off loading to Ukraine old technology. Only there are no planes to replace these migs to give them.

Cause American foreign policy is a dumpster fire run by idiots?

@mafketis
Now this I will agree with you. But the military is not run by idiots, and the CIA is a brilliant branch. Poland came up with the idea, and when they were told there were no planes to give them a week ago they pulled the surprise announcement about the German base yesterday to try to force the US national guard to send its planes to replace the migs. Poland's ideas, not the US.

Why would Poland yesterday volunteer to send all of its fighter to Germany to be re flagged and sent to Ukraine? They want to have no fighter? No. They want new ones from the US and tried to pressure them to do it.

Yeah, I've noticed it. On contrary to what Cojestdocholery may think - I'm not stupid :) That's why I wrote that Poland is in NATO, just like the US is. Americans should think, before they say stuff... :/


A lot, actually. I don't think Putin is insane. Evil, cruel, maybe a psychopath, perhaps paranoid, but I don't think he's sick in the head to such an extent. He's not a ranting maniac like Hitler, imho.

Of course it's just my opinion, I'm not the one making decisions, they're being made by people better informed than us (I hope lol), so take it easy, it's just a discussion forum :)


Then maybe they shouldn't be saying that if, according to them, it's such a dangerous idea? What were they thinking?


No, you're stupid lol


As I already explained to PolAmKrakow I didn't write anywhere that NATO should take part in this war. Can't you read?

Please avoid excessive quoting

twitter.com/BadWeaponTakes/status/1498379906216046592

businessinsider.com/russell-texas-bentley-fighting-for-russia-in-ukraine-2022-3

One American from Texas who is on the right side.

:)

American in Donetsk Russell Bentley's YouTube Channel Censored by The Shining City on a Hill 3/8/22

Apparently the people of the west cannot be exposed to the views of one man living in a war zone who does not support the official narrative.

youtu.be/OstVrYGs0nc