Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades

@Paulina
Showing my ignorance here, but if it's not such a big deal to Catholics, why is Kania holding it over my head like I'm about to be dipped into hellfire?

Even more ignorant - what's the position of the Catholic Church on apparitions? From what little I know, in orthodoxy believing in ghosts is a heresy.

His lack of personal greed meant that he wasn't wealthy, despite being a best-selling author, however his later years in London were more materially comfortable than his early years there.


Looks like you're confusing cause and effect.


Sadly, it is a very long way from it. Often the exact opposite of Christianity visibly manifests within the Polish church. Not just extreme examples like Rydzyk,.Jankowski and the Bethanki; it also manifests day to day.

It looks like the Russians aren't doing very well at all, so now they're focussing on the indiscriminate killing of civilian women and children. Par for the course where Russia and its wretched allies are the same.

So you see, the things are slowly improving in this matter. What did I tell you, woman? ;)


Yes, unfortunately. But if there is anything that might cause civilisational shift in Russia, it's Christianity. Nothing is impossible with God.


Certainly not. We are all immortals. Our bodies can die (they will be resurrected though) but our souls are immortal. :)


I'm not a Catholic anymore, but it doesn't mean that Holy Spirit is not at work even in Roman Catholic church. Never underestimate God who can use the weakest people for his purposes.

Interesting.

I simply came to the conclusion that my personal way to Christ will be realised better in a different branch of Christianity. It doesn't mean that I hate my former Church or bear any serious resentment against it (although I did initially). I still consider them a force for good (mostly).

I don't know, you'll have to ask him :P


Well, as seen by the Fatima example they seem to be approved by the Catholic Church.


I don't know about that, to be honest... Based on what is written in Wikipedia the Coptic Orthodox Church approves apparitions too (it's not the same as "seeing ghosts" though):

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Marian_apparitions

@GefreiterKania

Don't want to pry into something so private, but this is very interesting to me. I had "acquaintances" in Russia that had joined the Jehovah's Witnesses (banned in Russia now), and various Baptist churches (sorry, not good with the nomenclature for this). Literally everywhere they were treated like sh!t. Even at the bar, getting drunk amongst friends, people would begin to berate them as some sort of cultural sell outs. In my mind, it seemed excessive but at the same time, clearly it was linked to the opening up of Russia after 1991 to various American evangelicals that had some strange ideas about our part of the world.

My understanding was always that if a Pole is not Catholic his Polish card gets revoked (I say this in jest). What's your treatment from other Poles been? Family, friends, colleagues? Is this something you largely keep to yourself to not stick out?


How is literally seeing somebody that's been dead for 2,000 years not "seeing ghosts"?

Hmm. Not for me, religion.

One of the larger non-Catholic varieties of Christianity in Poland but repressed heavily under communism (partly based on refusal to serve in the military which is maybe related to current ban in Russia).

Weird ideas they have* but a long time ago I knew a JW family in Poland that was okay (not the most super-observant).

*and some of their ideas are awful, like shunning...

I've found this:

thecompassnews.org/2019/10/does-the-catholic-church-believe-in-ghosts/

"Fr. Doyle answered, "I am aware of no scriptural scholar who would say that this statement of Jesus confirms that there are, in fact, ghosts. On the other hand, Jesus did not debunk the notion when given the chance. Which is pretty much where the Catholic Church stands on the matter of ghosts: There is no settled doctrinal teaching with respect to their existence, no provision in conciliar teaching or canon law that addresses it.""


According to some hardcore right-wingers maybe ... But yes, Poles are defenitely traditionally Catholics.

Some Christian denominations certainly believe in the existence of ghosts and are happy to bless houses affected by them. There's also millions of Spiritualist Christians who believe in them and there are Methodists who don't make a thing of it but are generally aware of their founder John Wesley's strong belief in and interesting writings on poltergeists. The great Christian mystic, Swedenborg, had fairly strong views on the matter too.

Hard to know how mystical religion relates specifically to Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine and Poland's response to it; although Russian Orthodoxy has historically tended more to mysticism than to science and if you're prepared to believe some of their odder teachings, frankly you are able to believe any old rubbish.

:)

It is a widely spread stereotype. Many great Poles were either not Catholics of left the Catholic church, e.g. Józef Piłsudski (yes, the guy who kicked your a*ses in 1920) left the Catholic church in 1899 and converted to Lutheranism, and "the Father of Polish literature" Mikołaj Rej was a Calvinist.

There have been a lot of conversions recently, mostly to Lutheranism but also to other protestant denominations and Orthodoxy - my favourite convert to Orthodoxy is Paweł Wróblewski...

impantokratoros.gr/BEE27CDF.en.aspx

... a philosopher from the University of Wrocław. He did a lot to change the perception of Orthodoxy in Poland.


No change at all. We are a civilised country - no attempts at stoning me have been made. :) So, as I said before, the Christianity in Poland is becoming richer and more diverse in recent years - that's the future of Christianity imo, not some sort of unified Borg entity but richness in diversity.

I am a happy Calvinist now - conservative, in Puritan tradition - so any move towards Christian orthodoxy and godly law in Russia is good news to me. :)

Worried about getting a warning from the admin for "off topic" myself. However, I do think that if you follow this thread carefully, very carefully indeed, you will see how this is germane to our theme.


Huh. That's cool. We don't have a lot of Calvinists in Russia. Not the answer I expected.

Some of them have the official seal of approval, like Fatima and Lourdes ie they're accepted as having been 'real'. However the church also respects what they call 'personal revelations'. That is, if I say I saw the Virgin Mary or Jesus himself, anyone who wants to believe me is allowed to believe, but the church won't give me the rubber stamped document to say it's true :)

On a personal level some Catholics believe in the apparitions at Fatima, Lourdes etc, some don't.

Also Roman Catholicism varies in nature in different countries. In Ireland Catholicism stems from an ancient monastic tradition and only became Romanized in the nineteenth century. So the 'vibe' is quite different to Poland. In the second half of the twentieth centure we really embraced Vatican II for example and Poland didn't. In Ireland we take the Communion host in our hand, in Poland I've heard of the priest refusing to give Communion that way!

Are you kidding?:

themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/07/russian-church-leader-appears-to-blame-gay-pride-parades-for-ukraine-war-a76803


We had an Evangelical Prime Minister once (Jerzy Buzek).

I didn't fancy reading through the hundred dreary pages on my return to PF.

It's easy enough to guess how it related; nationalism, irredentism, revanchism and religion (no shortage of any of those in Russia, Poland and also Ukraine) are often conflated into a sort of national mythos; we can see that in Russia's current appalling behaviour (worth remembering that Stalin temporarily lightened up on the role of religion in Russia during WWII) and this exists in Poland too. It's more justifiable in Poland, given the history of invasions, occupations, uprisings and lost wars. In Russia its emergence evidently differs.

Basically, Ciemnogrod.


That's just the same boring sort of deranged trash you can find in 50 countries, including Poland. They always lose in the end.


We have our first RC one which surprised everybody. A decade or so ago that would have been a real worry (whose authority is higher for him, the Queen or the Bishop of Rome?) however since he's utterly irreligious and doesn't attend church, most people aren't too worried.

Very clever you are.

Twice, sorry ;) There was also a pre-war one - Felicjan Sławoj Składkowski.

Indeed I am, however Winnie was probably cleverer when he described Russia as "a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma".


Dan, Dan, the lavatory man. Very good ideas on public health.

To drag the topic away from religion...

I came across this image (no date) from the phony Soviet enclave in the German heartland of Königsberg in which a doctor of history and professor of Kant university says that people should judge those who informed against family and friends in 1937 USSR (height of Stalin purges) they were patriots who wanted the best for their country....

ic.pics.livejournal.com/storm100/57290853/4275191/4275191_original.jpg

I keep getting the feeling that Putin is gearing up for a major domestic killing spree since the country has failed him so miserably.... his fifth column speech really seems like setting the stage for something demented....

@mafketis
100% maf. This is exactly what he will do when he began talking about people not wanting to give up champagne and oysters. He is going to punish those people who are not visibly behind him and supporting him. He feels betrayed by those people he allowed to steal from the rest of the country.

My Grandfather once said if you are waiting for your best friend to return and he has been gone for 2000 years, you have been wasting time. Religion only has anything to do with this war as it is used to control and manipulate the masses.

One Roman Catholic archbishop stated that Orthodox Christian Russia is the last barrier on the path of the Antichrist. Although this is not the official position of the Catholic Church itself, it is a welcome development.

Poisoner Putin certainly ticks all the boxes in that respect.


Sadly yes. I've a feeling that whenever he alludes to nukes, part of him is thinking après moi, le déluge.

Maybe becasue Moscow claimed all Orthodoxs for their own,


lol What would you expect from Tzar's dogs? Sadly Moscow Patriarch is not much more than that.
By the way that are spot on gay parades, it became idological export of the west. lol!


Maybe for him, westerners are samewhat dimwitted but then they can afford to be.


Killing people is not demented, it is Russia. It is about being effcient and in control.

A sweeping generalisation there, not least because what you call 'westerners' are currently all that stands between you and a mushroom cloud in your town. So you'd better hope for dear life that our wits are very sharp indeed. Otherwise you and all those dear to you in PL will end up as shadows on a glowing wall.

And of course he was absolutely right with that quote.


So in fact, demented.

Not really. I think that the way they act now is more risky and can end in nukes being used. They need to make a stand and show Moscow an iron fist. There should be no fly zone established at least in the western Ukrainie. American heavy division on Królewiec border, few more nukes close enough to evaporate Moscow and Putin bunker (I guess USA knows where he is) if need to be.

It is to issure that nukes won't be fired, unless you are going to back off till you run out of Europe.


No from the country. from him, all the money in the country are his.


Nope different.
They do not share Christian, European, western values and never were. Somehow you westerners fail to grasp it. Maybe it is becasue they are white (not all), that racist.

Maybe becasue they are imperialist and you are too. lol!

You men the way Poisoner Putin acts, surely.


Which would certainly escalate the situation to a nuclear conflict. Aside from Ukraine, PL is the most vulnerable country in the world for that right now.


There are hundreds of those already, all of them belonging to what you describe as westerners.


Aside from the Western part, that is precisely what Russia claims.

Your laughable comment about people being 'white' or not is irrelevant.

It is revelant, seeing as you assume they are like Europeans based on their look. You are a racist like most westerners.


I mean they are acting weak and affraid. Macron is in Putin ass.


Would it? I don't know if it would. Nukes goes both ways and Putin know it too. The only way to ensure he will use them is to make him belive that you have no balls and won't use nukes.


Bring those hipersonic closer!


They would claim to be a LGBT capital of the world if they would find it working for them. It propaganda aimed to divide stupid westerners so they turn on each other.

Like literally what?

Central and Eastern Europeans run like mad to EU/NATO when only they got the chance. Why? Why Russia was unable to hold them?

Because Russia has absolutely zero soft power, zero economic or social incentive for anyone to remain in her sphere of influence, barring perhaps the Central Asian "stans" whose alternatives are even shittier.

Exactly. In old world order. Now in Multi-Polar world when Russia get rid itself from western European and USA dictate, things will change.

I don't actually. How someone looks, whether they're 'Europeans' or not is largely irrelevant. Perhaps you're talking about European values which are unaffected by ap[pearance, ethnic origin, and to a point geography.


I'm not, but you certainly are, based on your posts in other threads.


But does he care?

As I said earlier, après moi, le déluge

Of your other two comments, I'll not quote them partly due to the three quotes rule and partly because they are reasonable, although I'll return your attention to the fact that NATO has rather a lot of long-range weapons and their principle advantage of speed is mitigated by the fact that the UK's nukes (and some others) are held on submarines whose location on operations is secret and for all Putin knows they could be minutes away from turning him and his flat-headed nomenklatura to atoms.