Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades

Two points. What kind of aggression triggers Article 5? And: let's drop that NATO bs. It's the US and a bunch of pretenders.
Today, a couple of morons can bring a big city to a grinding halt for three days. See: "Boston brave". A clever guy in Novosibirsk with a cheap PC can terrorize and bring to a screeching halt any business - if not a country - from his basement. No shots fired. Does that trigger A5?

Now, replace that wiseguy with the FSB or Mossad with unlimited resources...What do you see?

It has to be an "armed attack" (is explicit mentioned in Article 6).....aka the Red Army on it's way to your Capital would count!

nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm

...Article 6

"For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer."

Interesting.....it was an attack on the US which invoked Article 5 for the first time...

...The 9/11 terrorist attacks

The United States was the object of brutal terrorist attacks on 11 September 2001. The Alliance's 1999 Strategic Concept had already identified terrorism as one of the risks affecting NATO's security. The Alliance's response to 9/11, however, saw NATO engage actively in the fight against terrorism, launch its first operations outside the Euro-Atlantic area and begin a far-reaching transformation of its capabilities. Moreover, it led NATO to invoke Article 5 of the Washington Treaty for the very first time in its history.

@Novichok
A nations wealth is not my concern. Wealth, real wealth, is individual, not conceptual like a nations wealth. Kuwait for instance is a very wealthy country. Incredibly poor for the masses. National wealth has zero impact on individual wealth and freedom. Get a clue. History books have zero influence on real life.

Real life? Ukraine? Kiev and Lviv are/were great cities, and a lot of personal wealth. Peaceful people. Not once did I have a problem in any city without speaking Russian or Ukrainian. Russia? Completely different. Corrupt. Criminal. Need body guards if you have money. But you wouldnt know that because you have never been to either, and have no money.

You get all the $hi* because you deserve it for supporting Putin. You are a traitor, pure and simple.

Nice! :)

But the reason for that attack, or the human errors leading to that, are not important, only the reaction....and the fact remains! Article 5 was invoked, for the first time in NATO history!

On the big rally in Moscow yesterday.... we knew it was fake, but we had no idea how fake...

twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1505027822569631745

There are suggestions that Putin wasn't there (it would be very unlike him now....) and that his speech was interrupted because of booing from the crowd...

video here:

focus.ua/world/509838-putina-osvistali-na-stadione-vo-vremya-koncerta-v-chest-okkupacii-kryma-video

He and/or Russia are in deep d00d00...

@mafketis, nah, I think that photo is simply lazy journalism - they probably used one that they had already and which looked nice.


A hologram? xD


Nope... Here's the rest of the speech:

fb.watch/bRXNbMAI1s/

The crowd was clapping and cheering actually...

I KNEW it!!!! :)

@BB, read my post... There was no booing...

.....there was surely inwardly booing!

Are whistles good in Russia? There is definitely whistling and a kind of low rumble that seems to make him stammer a bit...


There are suggestions that the more enthusiastic crowd pictures were from a concert last year... pictures of the crowds from yesterday are definitely glum with no obvious signs of enthusiasm...

One source specifically says video from last year was being pass off by Russian TV as being from yesterday... I know it's hard to believe in Russian media doing anything dishonest, but....

@mafketis, I've seen the moment when his speech was cut off and there's this moment in that video that I posted. In that moment there are no whistles and rubling or anything, if I remember that moment well.


I'm not talking about that concert in general, just about the video I posted.


Yes, I've read that there was less enthusiasm on that concert than in the past, or at least than right after the Crimea annexation.


Who knows, could be... What source though?

Stupidly. It set a precedent of dragging NATO members into a potentially nuclear war only because one member acted recklessly. In that sense, this is not true:


In this case, they were extremely important since those "human errors" were 100% preventable (try to break into the cockpit today) and, as such, past the point where errors end and criminal recklessness starts. The US gov and the airlines were criminally reckless and that is why the swamp immunized them from any future lawsuits even before all the bodies were removed from the wreckage.

Well.....one could (and you kinda did) also say the Ukrainians are stupid for not falling over backwards to Moscow's wishes and so "forcing" Putin to send the army.....

But to discuss and judge the cleverness of governmental actions is more for later history writers, in the moment of need NATO must act, and as the US asked we all answered, FACT!

From dailymail.com:

Priti Patel warns female Russian spies posing as fleeing Ukrainians could come to UK to launch Salisbury-style Novichok attacks - as she dismisses calls to drop refugee security checks

I resent this. I didn't attack anybody.

Except life size cutout of Putin, with lust.

One could and one will again. Ukrainians, like AK in August of 1944 in Warsaw, were stupid to fight an uneven fight and not to agree to Swedish-style neutrality.

Whatever the final outcome, realistically, do you honestly believe that Russia, after all the dead they brought home, will ever give what they took - including Crimea?


Please share your experience. I have no clue how it's done.

Frankly...IMHO everything hangs (and falls) with Putin! This "resurrection" of the Sovietunion is the dream of an old sick sack, gone crazy in the head, to long in power, missing his youth, reliving the past through nostalgic rosy glasses, as it often happens with old people!

With someone else in power, who knows what's possible...

There are all sorts of suggestions, including using a green screen and using a double. He's done both before, however the suggestion that the camera cut due to booing is credible


Something else they've done before which adds credibility to the suggestion.


Have you been there?

I have (several times) and I didn't see either masses (Kuwait doesn't have a big population), nor did I see any visible poverty; only conspicuous affluence, The people doing menial jobs or running Mom n' Pop businesses tend to be foreign and temporary residents.

Media claim that 2 millions of Ukrainian refugees moved to Poland now. I'm curious what impression make Ukrainians on Poles? Is there any rumors about their behavior?

Only good ones as far as I know. Shops are fuller since shopping in most of Ukraine is crap so most of the refugees (ho are female) are enjoying visiting malls etc, even if they've not got much to spend.

There are obviously going to be problems; some refugees wo'\t be ideal guests and some hosts won't be ideal hosts - presumably Poland is insisting on police checks for hosts, give the number of women and children however I'd not be surprised if some dodgy people fell through that net due simply to the sheer number of hosts, So far though, I've heard only positive things.


Worth remembering that most people in PL, especially those in cities, have already encountered Ukrainian people and have already formed an impression.

Ukrainian labor has been an important part of the economy for years, so they're kind of a known quantity.

Many are already trying to find work (a friend saw two new trainees in a store who clearly wanted to do a good job).

@jon357, I have seen both the moment when Putin's speech was cut off - the TV broadcast and the video made by one of the people in the audience. There was no booing, he didn't stumble and, to be honest, I didn't see any reason for his speech to be cut off on purpose. They claimed it was a technical glitch, as far as I remember, and maybe for once they told the truth lol


I've even read in a Polish article that it could be Putin's hologram! lol Sorry, but that's just ridiculous, imho.

Yes, I've read that people were bused in, that some left after they had their tickets punched, some others left after Putin's speech (and I've seen videos of them leaving) and I find it believable that some of the audience footage could be from some previous rally at which people were showing more enthusiasm. I'm yet to see any evidence though that:

- Putin wasn't there,
- his speech was cut off on purpose because of something embarrassing.

Without evidence it's just our wishful thinking...

Vlad Vexler points to a phone survey of 31,000 concerning the way where over 29,000 hung up as soon as they heard the question...

twitter.com/VladVexler/status/1505238278420811787

Very positive so far, judging by the comments of people hosting them in their homes. They often get attached to them and Ukrainian women are very keen to help around the house, cook, etc.


Yup. 1 million of Ukrainians were already in Poland, after all...

Some parents in Russia are trying to protect their children from the state propaganda at Russian schools concerning the invasion on Ukraine by using the article of the Russian law which prohibits political agitation at school and by educators (all those "Z" actions, etc.):

activatica.org/content/49e66d93-ddcf-4cfb-9dbc-e3173a434f6d/roditeli-pytayutsya-zashitit-detej-ot-voennoj-propagandy

Ironically, that law was used by the state to punish teachers protesting against the Crimea invasion (by having nails painted yellow and blue, for example).

Here you can see Russian kids forming "Z" and holding sheets of paper with ribbon of Saint George formed into the shape of the infamous letter Z:

v.wpimg.pl/Mjc4MDU4YgsCVjt3ek9vHkEOby08FmFIFhZ3Znp7YlxXBDVzZwZiDApYKDYwRCJEBEY4NDRDPUQTWGIlJV1iHFIbKS0mRCELGhsoKTdRKUVWBi5xYAR_XU5Qf3E0GXlaU1FgfGQFeUdRVykgYAcoW1QCdHN3SQ

Reminds me on Nazi-Germany with the Hakenkreuz....

Astounding! For that Russia was always so proud about every WWII victory parade, don't they think about WHAT they defeated and how similiar they have become???

Maybe Nazism wasn't the problem in the first place, only that Hitler attacked them....

Is there any unrest among Poles that they need to feed so many Ukrainians and fo how long is it going to continue?

They claim all sorts of sh1t; usually lies.


I saw the hologram suggestion however it was but that; a suggestion and a wild one; holograms are possible however they are also fairly easily spotted. Green screens are more likely, a double is more likely yet. You said you watched it all and didn't hear booing; remember that you wouldn't' hear it unless it was broadcast or recorded on whatever platform or TV station you saw it. Audio and video feeds usually have a 10 second delay precisely so they can cut off the feed if there are problems like booing; and of course they did cut off the live feed. Any claims coming from Lavrov or Peskov are far more likely to be lies than truth, given their history of compulsive lying.


No; if anything the response from Poles has been wonderful.


Until Poisoner Putin is defeated, until the pariah state Russia pays crippling war reparations and until Ukraine is rebuilt.

Yeah, it's creepy...

There are many more photos here (even with kids in kindergarten):

tjournal.ru/internet/565959-z-i-deti-v-shkolah-i-detskih-sadah-prohodyat-akcii-v-podderzhku-rossiyskoy-armii-i-uroki-o-vozvrashchenii-kryma


Not so far, from what I can see the positive response have been amazing. There were some fake news that were supposed to turn Poles against Ukrainian refugees, but I guess it didn't work on majority of people. I've seen some negative comments on the internet about Wołyń massacre or Ukrainians getting "privileges", but it's hard to tell which of them are genuine and which are made by Russian trolls (or, at least, I didn't have time to check). Those people are usually criticised for such attitude by the majority of Poles though, from what I've noticed (and quite often they're being accused of being Russian trolls).

Bad memories! :(

I really hoped Europe were over it.....