Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 2

Really?
I don't believe that for a second.


Nah,you are not a true bastard,.

Then. Now it's China.

And of course the HRE was a mess of rival polities. Never really an empire and an ignominious decline.

As you know, no empire has endured as long as China or risen so fast in the modern world free millennia of near isolation.


They forget that most of NATO is not America.

There are some rumours that the draconian Zero-Covid policy is upheld because local functionaries do not dare to tell Xi how negatively this affects their communities.


There have been numerous leaks suggesting this. Its' either that explanation or Putin had the evidence suggesting that his plan would not work and went ahead regardless. Neither explanations shines a good light on him.


Not sure why you keep bringing up the Iraq War. Pretty much everybody agrees today that the Iraq War was one of the biggest, if not the biggest American foreign political blunders in history. Russia is older than the USA and has overall a poorer record, but it is already clear that the Ukrainian War will be one of their biggest mistakes in the last 100 years or so. However to the credit of the USA and their intelligence agencies, they actually managed to crush Saddam's troops and take Baghdad in a month or so, while the Russian troops suffered a humiliating defeat at Kiev.

Commentators before the invasion (some of whom were derided as fear mongers) pointed out that he had imperialist ambitions and there was only one small window in which he could act on them. It was now or never.


In effect the end of russia as many perceived or and a shift of power and influence in Europe and beyond.

Why then are you against this war?

Potemkin villages.

Happens all the time in China, in North Korea and in Russia. In russia's case it's been a patterning, during and after the Soviet Union.

It's allegedly why so many of Putler's generals are currently imprisoned.

Because other countries will suffer as well, just not to the same degree as Russia.

That is what Putin has done.


Because many innocent people had to die for this madmans miscalculation.

Really? But killing Iraqis was no problem because they MIGHT have nukes? Well, Ukraine MIGHT join NATO.

With all these benefits...


...you, Euros, should love this war.

In fact, you do. And that is why you and the US supply Z-hole with the sh*it that kills and destroys. Without it, that war and the killing would be over by now.

So much for that fake concern about human life.

I'm not saying it will ever happen. I'm saying NATO is not an inherent part of of USian identity and culture.

@Tacitus

But, how will it effect China's desire to ascend to the top of the global power structure, as it desires?

It isn't an identity for anyone, except perhaps people in Brussels where it's based and where their staff live. It's a defensive alliance and a successful one however many of the states in it are in other types of alliance and some more independent.

Its opponents accuse it of being a political bloc or an expression of American imperialism.

Although there are elements of both in it, it is essentially a pragmatic response to the very real threat from russia.


Yes. And so many more will in the future of this madman's ambitions and those of his countrymen are left unchecked.

No argument. That's why I hate our swamp and the reasons they cite: NATO and you, Euros.


If you are sure that he is a madman, act accordingly. Supplying Z-hole with guns is not acting accordingly.

The arrest of an AMERICAN in ODESSA for wearing a Russian T-shirt. Here is what he told them:

youtu.be/0ozsuS450EU

Often, it feels like dealing with children here...spouting nonsense and getting angry when it brought up to their attention.

Nonsense 1: Russia is getting weaker, Europe is getting stronger ... but we are very much against the war.
Nonsense 2: Russia is so weak that even Poland could beat it....but we still need the US in NATO with two nuclear powers plus Germany in it already.

Nonsense 3: Innocent Ukrainians are dying...boo hoo...but we will supply them with enough guns to keep the war going until the last Ukrainian.

Any street-wise third-grade ghetto kid could see through this bs but not PF military geniuses.

Europe is suffering as well from the war, just not as badly as Russia does.


You should really educate yourself what a deterrent is and the difference between strategical and tactical nuclear weapons.

Two hints: One: Poland might be able to defend itself, but if left alone Russia mighr still consider it a risk worth taking. With the USA it will refrain from doing so. Two: France and the UK would have trouble reacting to a tactical nuclear strike, since their nuclear weapons are mostly strategic.


More would be dying if we did not help them. Ever heard of Butcha and other places where the Russians gained controle?

What a stupid Yank. They should just send that trash back with few injuries. Can't do it, but it is tempting.


Hey wise street bum, do you think people are post or say everything they know or think? What are you ten?
There is war in Ukrainie, Russian war of aggresion against that country. Who is at fault here Russia! Who is to blame Russia, why you always take Russian side? If you are not Russian as you claim? People are dying, bussiesnes are loosing money because of Russia, Putin and all Russians.

Yet you attack the victiom here like a vulture or like one of those Russians.

In the interest of Poland and USA is to kick Russian that much they won't get up in the next 100 years. If you don't get that much there is something faulty with your brain, If you do know that and still troll, there 99% chance you are Russian or Russian paid shill.

There is a rule in law that makes the last party that could prevent a bad event from happening responsible for that event. Raise your arms, drop the gun...you know the rest. If, however, you choose to shoot, you will very likely die.

But I know I am wasting my time.


Bullcrap. If the EU and the US stayed away, Ukraine - all of it or a major part - would be like Crimea is now and the war would be a quickly fading memory.

But Zdiot and his faithful decided to fight till the last man standing...Have it your way and at least don't whine.


I am not taking the Russian side. I have always been against the Warsaw Uprising because it was an incredibly stupid, high-risk low-payback thing to do. But that doesn't mean I was on the German or Soviet side. Stupid is stupid no matter how "wrong" the other guys are.

Losing your life for Z-P=0 is incredibly stupid. No, Ukrainian "democracy" is not better enough than Russia's to die for the difference.

From ABC:

200 Ukrainian fighters are dying every day.

From me: Voluntarily and unnecessarily.

Sorry...I forgot about that very special Ukrainian "democracy".

@Novichok
With your arguments concerning the execution of the Ukraine soldiers, you should be considered an enemy and you should be publicly tried and executed. You have your citizenship in the USA under false pretexts and support the Russian war criminal Putin. Your way of arguing using Iraq as a basis for your thinking is beyond childish, it has no direct comparison, apples to basketballs.

@Crow
Looks like Serbia is being told to support sanctions or lose the EU membership status. You may get your wish to become part of the Russian state or sphere of influence and enjoy all the benefits of living in a police state where your neighbors can turn you in for anything. It will be nice though when your access to PF is cut off because PF supports democratic society and will not be a good place to Serbs to visit as it may corrupt their thinking.

Now we have cholera showing up in Mariupol. Because the Fing retarded Russians wont go and clear out the dead civilian bodies in apartment buildings. They are simply leveling the buildings with the bodies inside and letting all the bacteria get into the ground water and drinking water systems. Yes, start a war and then try to destroy evidence of criminal acts by burying the bodies under rubble is the Russian approach. Treating civilians like they treat their soldiers. Meat. Happy gulag biatches!

So... you do admit that it's better.

Progress.....

Wait... You are so vigorously discussing which democracy is better and which is worse, that I even hesitated - perhaps I missed the inclusion in the system of measures and weights of the unit of measurement of democracy. Enlighten me as to who it is named after, what is its physical expression through other measurable units, and where can I purchase a instrument to measure democracy. Also, I would welcome information on metrology centers where this instrument can be routinely calibrated and verified.

A friend of mine just returned from their short term contract, where he worked on repairing trophy ukrainian tanks, and porobably will go there again after a short vacation. I would like to give such instrument to him, to compare average measurements on russian and ukrainian soil.

It's not in the dirt, it's in the mind.

Ukrainians (like Poles) expect to have a voice in public issues affecting them (the free man worldview) and they get upset when that doesn't happen and they protest.

Russians have no such expectation (or desire?) but simply passively accept whatever the Tsar tells them (serf/slave worldview) when they're unhappy about the Tsar's project they seethe in silence but comply.

questions?

Donbass people get upset in 2014, after <0.1% of freaks on Maidan overthrew elected government and install nazi junta mostly consisting of banderists from western ukraine. Then under continuous attacks they stay on their decision for 8 years and fight for it with weapons in their arms. Does this means that everything is OK with democracy on Donbass, and their decision must be accepted without too much questioning?

But you told nothing of measurement of democracy. It is hard to compare something that can't be measured with reproducible results.

@Velund

Listen, at least in Ukraine they can elect their own president through a direct vote. In the United States they don't even have this freedom. They must instead rely on 538 electors to make the correct choice for them, since the peasants themselves can't be trusted. This can sometimes lead to outcomes where the person that got more votes loses the election.

At least in Ukraine, you don't have a system where a state with 500K people gets the same amount of senators as one with 40M people. This leads to situations where a minority of backwoods troglodytes can continuously block legislation necessary for an absolute majority of the population.

At least in Ukraine you don't have a situation where corn farmers in Iowa and hippies in New Hampshire can determine who New York and Texas even get to vote on.

At least in Ukraine, you don't have 50 different sets of elections laws, and a situation where most of the population faces difficulties in performing same day voting by just showing up. In America, you have to go through bureaucracy to even be able to cast a vote, whereas in Ukraine you just show up, day of, at your polling station and it's as simple as that.

At least in Ukraine you don't have the borders of voting districts running through people's backyards because of endless gerrymandering.

So I would not be so skeptical of Ukrainian democracy, Velund.

Do you seriously think those actually on Maidan could have stayed there so long had they not had the support of the majority?


That is maybe the stupidest thing yet said on this thread (and there is very stiff competition). Please show evidence of nazi party membership of Poroshenko and/or Zelensky....


Here you are...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Read the whole page, yhou might learn something.... (or not....)

Notice how the countries in blue at the bottom are altogether nicer to live in that the countries in orange/brown....

Method to assure support from the majority is clearly seen in video above. Yeah, its extreme variant, in most cases smaller calibers was used.


Ye shall know them by their fruits.
(Matthew 7:16)

You are hopelessly romantic if you really hold this view. How long protesters can stay on a public square is not determined by whether or not they have the support of the majority, but on the infrastructure and funding available. Running an unsanctioned protest is busy work.

Starting from the basics: (1) portable toilets (2) field kitchens (3) shelter from weather (4) copious amounts of alcohol and tobacco (5) entertainment.

Whether it's Kyrgyz politicians tussling with each other for the White House, or Georgians sorting out their local beefs, or university students running an Occupy Wall Street protest - everyone has learned these basics. These things require money. Money is politics. I once read in an article that the protests in Kyrgyzstan cost the organizers a million dollars a day to maintain. That's just the costs of busing people in from the regions, feeding them with buckwheat porridge and vodka, paying some local pop star to keep them entertained, and paying a bunch of Facebook and Twitter influencers to shape the message.

That's not a lot of money, but it's still money. You can't sit on a public square for months on pure enthusiasm, regardless of how many care packages you get from volunteers. You need organization (beyond the logistics - you need organizational cells, and motivated cell leaders that will monitor morale and keep people engaged), and you need funds. As a reward however - you have a picture that can be used on national television, and that's more important than any "majority" of the population.

In the case of the ousting of Yanukovych, on the other end of the barricade you had all the usual suspects. His former underlings, his former minister colleagues, his old patrons. The only thing absent was new people. It was the same Tymoshenko, Yatsenyuk. Poroshenko, Tigipko, Tyagnibok, Lyashko crowd that's been there since 1991. They just co-opted the people's anger for their own political ends, and then kept it on a boil until the desired effect was achieved. Same as during the Orange Revolution. They had clear reason to benefit from throwing the support of their parties and their businesses behind the Maidan - and they did. They all did. Either monetarily or through being rewarded with powerful positions. The Maidan activists themselves got zilch.

@Bobko
Your best post ever. Accurate and critical. Bravo.

In a real democracy though, no one has to fear the thought or speech police. No one has to fear completely sham trials. While Ukraine is imperfect as most democracies are, it is certainly a more free society than Russia. The "freedoms" Russians have wanted for a century do not exist in Russia, it is a turd world country with resources that are squandered.

Yes, Bobko has good penmanship, doesn't he? :) They say that music has charms to soothe the savage breast, but I always found it even more true with regards to literature or the word (spoken or written) in general. That's why it's so vital for people to talk to one another. I noticed that after reading a good post, you didn't end yours with "Happy gulag biatches!" :)


...it depends what you understand by "zilch". Sometimes it's not about direct financial gains. Workers from Gdańsk Shipyard, for example, could also claim that their involvement in "Solidarity" movement brought them "zilch" or even less than that - many of them lost their jobs, and eventually their shipyard fell. I don't even want to think what thousands of other industry workers or those from stated-owned farming companies (PGR-y) might like to say about their "profits" from the Solidarity revolution, but at the end of the day their actions brought better future for their children, grandchildren and Poland in general.

I suppose the ability of people to do good, to do what's right, without asking "what's in it for me?", is what eventually decides the welfare of nations.

I've never debated that on this forum. I would go further, and say that there is an excess of freedom in Ukraine. They may have astronomic corruption and a rotten political system, but they certainly have (or rather had until recently - now they have something called the National TV Marathon) a much freer media scene. The quality of the journalism is a little provincial compared to what you get out of Moscow or St Petersburg, but they can go into areas which are no-go zones for Russian journalists. They can sh!t on their president all day from their television channels, and only rarely do they get shut down for this. When they do, it usually causes a big stir and people don't like this.

Important caveat - the freedom to say anything nice about Russia is severely curtailed. Seeing as how this is one of the main issues facing them, you'd think it would be reasonable for them to allow people to form informed opinions on the subject. Alas, in their existential battle for survival they decided to give up this freedom.

That's about as nice as I can get about Ukrainian freedoms. The rest is mostly worse than in Russia. For example - the freedom from having random dudes use the local security services to steal your business from you. This is something that Russia has certainly been doing a better job in than Ukraine, which is still very much stuck in the 1990s.


Why thank you! I never thought I would read such words from PAK directed at me.

And appropriately so since they were representatives of the people and serving politicians.


He fled with stolen billions back to his puppet master in Moscow.

Perhaps he should return to face trial.

I won't join in the praise for your post. It is bullshıt propaganda.

One thing comes out of that post: a cynical contempt for politicians and democratic politics. The word "just" in the first quote here is an exam of that. They are politicians and it was a political matter. No "just" about it.

You are a kremlin stooge, using careful prose to justify murder and rape. You are scum.