Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 2

Yes, that's definitely partly it, but isn't there really anything more to it?

The third reason you mention is closest, except that in the UK's case it's about the three main EU states (who are, especially France, economically and politically hostile), plus long term access to other markets.

That and decency, democracy in Europe and the world world, the threat from r*ssia and China together plus the shared interests of the anglophone world.

That's my take on it, anyway.

That's what I suspected. Cheap energy from Russia gave German economy huge edge which was not necessarily to Britain's liking (especially after Brexit).


Of course. Quite right.


Yes, Iron mentioned it a couple of post before. 51st state and all that. ;)

Not so much that. More that we don't depend on their oil and gas so are able to do what those three countries are less able to do. Things their public want but their governments fear.

Plus we have a habit of having to step in to save mainland europe from itself, often at great cost to ourselves.

And the EU, especially France, makes no secret of its hostility towards Britain, despite our coming to their aid twice in the last century.

It's also the right thing to do. Important to be on the right side of history in an all to rapidly changing world. We have a difficult century ahead.

The seeds were sown when they carried out a chemical weapons attack on UK soil and there was a general dislike of r*ssia (and we don't have the closeness that France and Germany have) that predates that.

They've certainly interfered in our elections, tried to swing the Scotland referendum and have been funding terrorism in the UK for decades.


More an exasperated and sometimes slightly appalled parent.

Seriously? Weakened Ukraine is "better"? For whom? For Russia maybe...
Firstly, even before the war Ukraine wasn't exactly a powerhouse and you'd want it to be even weaker? That's simply sadistic...
Secondly, Ukraine is a friendly country towards Poland and thanks to Poland's support it will most probably remain like this for years to come. And it borders Russia. It's also pro-democratic and pro-Western. We should be supporting countries like that and not wishing them to be weak. Russia's neighbours have to be strong. Weak Russia's neighbours are a weak link and a problem for Poland (see: Belarus).

There are certain circles in Ukraine (not that marginal as many would like to think) that still dream of "regaining" Zakerzonia (ukr. Закерзоння), Lwiv Oblast council announced the year 2022 officially a UPA year and you can watch a lovely football game in Ternopil on a Stadion imeni Romana Shukhevycha. Just to keep things in perspective. Do we really want a militarily strong, 40-million, UPA-loving Ukraine? I don't know. For me a slightly weaker, 30(ish)-million one sounds a bit safer.

But hey, my maternal grandfather was a Wołyń survivor, so maybe I'm not entirely objective.


... like Austria was grateful and friendly towards Poland thanks to Poland's support against the Ottoman hordes in 1683? Or like Germany was grateful and friendly towards us for stopping the Red Army rolling to "liberate" Europe in 1920? Or like western allies were grateful to us, for our contribution to defeating the III Reich, in peace conferences in Tehran and Yalta? Yes, indeed, we can always count on gratitude of those whom we helped.


There is no contradiction here. You can support a country and still wish it to be ever so slightly weaker.

and look at this stupid moronic witch >

Ursula von der Layen makes moves with her hands

Ukraine granted candidate status

Candidate of what? Underworld?

The western part of it at least, and we are happy with what we have. Poland doesn't have any territorial claims on Ukraine.

Since when Poland respect borders drawn by communists? Please. You talk that to a little children. We Racowie are frank.

It's not Belarus that should be stronger but Poland. Then, perhaps, they would prefer to gravitate towards us rather than towards Russia. The entire idea of Intermarium is to have a group of smaller countries between Germany and Russia gravitate naturally towards Poland as a political and military centre of the alliance.

Of course, in the current situation, after we pretty much wasted the 30 or so years after regaining independence it is hardly possible, so the Intermarium formula had to be adjusted just like our internal and foreign policies have to be constantly adjusted with a view to Poland's best interest, not towards high ideals, hands holding and kumbaya singing. Sorry.

It would help if new Poland elite finally start to care about prosperity of Poles, not blindly follow orders of their masters across the strait. Current polish politicians is beyond desperation.

Unfortunately, gift of smolensk birch was wasted completely...

Name one country that Poland "blindly follows orders" from. Germany? You're having a laugh! If you don't believe me ask the Germans. :) The USA? Not at all. Sometimes conflicts of interests arise (media bill, Jewish property restitution project, IPN bill, "gay rights" etc.) and then a compromise has to be found and usually is found - they are after all our vital ally. In times of Warsaw Pact there were no discussions, talks or compromises - only orders from Moscow.


Galactic-scale arrogance and lack of respect. Maybe, just maybe, that's the reason why most of your former "friends and allies" want absolutely nothing to do with you ever again?

I agree but that is your fault. Culling our elite after the WWII. We have to deal with post-communist leftovers which are no better that vultures and that kind of idiots that are in power now.


Go back to the kitchen woman. We have enough men without ability to think straight. There is no friendly category.

No, Ukraine isn't the West. The West have never really needed us, Ukraine does. And we need strong Ukraine. So, unlike with the West, it's mutual. Also, majority of Western countries don't border with Russia. They don't know what it's like. Ukraine does.


Of course it is a contradiction.


Judging by those mass protests against Lukashenko last year a lot of people in Belarus already probably gravitate towards the Western direction. But Lukashenko's regime is too dependent on Russia's support and so Russia wants Lukashenko in power. If Belarusians would try to topple Lukashenko, Lukashenko would ask Russia for help and the Russian tanks would be rolling into Belarus. Belarus has a population of 9.3 million people. There's no way it can defy Moscow on it's own. It's not the rich, strong Finland with an army on NATO level. And it wouldn't matter whether Poland would be strong or not, because Poland wouldn't send it's troops to help Belarusians. So, yeah, it does matter whether a Russia's neighbour is strong or not. That's the sad truth.

Putin was keeping Belarus and Ukraine weak on purpose. That's what I've been told by anti-Putin Russians. It's easier to control or influence weak countries than strong ones.

Just a tiny galactic? Not whole universe? Looks like I need to train a bit more... ;)

And respect is quite volatile thing, lost much easier than earned. Duda is doing everything possible to annihilate the last grains...

As I already explained there's much more to this than just "hands holding and kumbaya singing". That is why the Polish government is investing so much in helping Ukraine.


Unlike you guys, I'm actually thinking straight. GefreiterKania's grandfather was a Wołyń survivor, so he's influenced by emotions connected to that. That's understandable, but those emotions may also cloud his judgement. Poland and Ukraine has an important common interest - keeping Russia at bay. Considering that Russia invades it's neighbours "just like that" and that everyone, including the West, is afraid to touch that nuclear, "holy cow" that's a very vital common interest, imho.

And if you cynical, Machiavellian right-wingers don't like the word "friendly" so much then we can use another one - an allied country.


Go f*ck yourself :)

The President of Kazakhstan tells Putin he supports sanctions against Russia and doesn't recognize LNR or DPR. On stage at the International Economic Forum 2022 in St.Petersburg

youtu.be/Ywtg6IdfaYk
@3:50

Not even the glorious CIS countries are supporting russia!

Our policy toward UE, they signed so called KPO with conditions - what for? The same with our legislation from UE they are siging everything and they tell us they are not.

That propaganda where you can talk about policy towards Ukrianie as they or they slander those who ask questions.
I didn't turst PiS when they first took over. I thought that are better then PO but had my doubts about their willinges or ability to do a good job. Right now I think they are disaster! What they have done to econmy? Who is going to pay for it? What have they done siging everything with EU>? How they spend our money - giving more then needed money on Ukrainians.

Their propaganda on TVP - I'm unable to watch it! Soon we will have gender, homo marriges and parades everywhere and all radical legisation that is out there.

J kaczyński is a moron, just build some more moenument for his brother. Yes they build some infratructure that was needed in Poland but that about all. We are going to pay for all of it and debts and inflation PiS is robbing Poles blindly.

They need to go!


Russian respect is easy enough t o earn Poland need a lot of nukes and that will do a trick.


I knew it, you are not only stupid but vulgar too. lol!

Yes, and Russia is learning this lesson as we speak :)


Oh, I'm vulgar from time to time to just a selected few who deserve it on this forum... You, however, are stupid all the time :))


Iron claimed not to support PiS either. He was more into Konfederacja, I think.

Yes that is why he is so angry at the moment, Konfederacja is at civil war at the moment, some support russia others do not.

It's low hanging fruit for suckers.

There is something about Christian faith I do find interesting, though. My understanding is that the millenial generation within Russia are more religious than other generations. I wonder how true that is and why? I read one commentary that said the reason was it was that generation's form of rebellion.


I've never heard of evangelicals joining Orthodox church, but it's particularly stupid of evangelicals to fall for the Russia as Defender of Christianity trope especially considering the Yarovaya laws that impacts religious freedom.

The above should read: something about Christian faith in Russia...

#Cojestdocholery was right. Kinder, Küche, Kirche....

It is impossible to lose something that never existed. I mean respect for Russia in Poland. Only different degrees of fear and a lot of envy among politicians... And among the ordinary sane people with whom I am personally acquainted, there is more of a caution and a desire to distance oneself from the possible conflict. The desire of politicians to serve their overseas masters is hardly compatible with the business of ordinary people.

Where Russia is really started to gain respect - it is Middle East. Recipe to get respect there is very easy - you have to hold your word and do what you promised. Just like a secret of English lawn, cut the grass, and water timely... 200 years in a row... ;)

Funny to read opinions on what Poles should do from people who are not in Poland, or have not been in Poland for decades. You have no idea about what most Poles think because the only news you get is through Government controlled outlets. Your "sources" in Poland are old people out of touch with what the 50 and under people want in the country.

You are right about one thing though, respect for Russian's is zero, and has been zero for 30 years. No one trusts Russia or Russians. Aligning with the US and the EU is the only safe option. Poland for all its faults, and difficulties, is a nation that is on the rise. The spirit of the younger people in this country is one that wants growth and more freedoms. When PiS is gone, there will be a lot of change. Whether that happens in the next election or not is still questionable.

The Ukraine people here are very much different from Poles. Yes, they are closer to being Russian in mentality but that is only due to not being exposed to more western ways of doing things. That exposure is happening now. That education if you will, taking place in Poland of millions of Ukraine people will force change in Ukraine when many return. Most do want to return. Most do not want to stay because it is not their home, and the cost of living here is much higher for them. The Polish assistance is only allowing them so much, and there are not a whole lot being employed if they do not speak Polish and/or English.

As for Russia gaining respect in the middle east, that's great. Congratulations. I wonder if they will ever forget the Russian military actions there? I doubt it. I think you mistake respect for the middle east using Russia as a tool to obtain what they want, and then they will turn on Russia when it suits them. Just like they did the USA. Imagine what will happen if the US goes back to Iran and makes a nuclear deal? Not too much love for Russia after that I bet.

But all this talk bringing other countries into the Ukraine discussion shows the only real issue. Russia is desperately searching for "respect" or a "win" on the international stage. Russians are so desperate to be "something" that they will do anything to be acknowledged. They dont care if the world acknowledges them for being good or bad, just being something. Because Russia is really not worth acknowledging for anything else. They do nothing of substance to improve the world. So, the war will go on. Putin and Russia will continue to receive attention, and the west will continue to fight them with weapons to Ukraine and chocking off of resources. The west will win, it is just that simple.

@PolAmKrakow
So you think the only reason for this war is that "nothing" wants to be "something"? Cool.👍

@Alien
It is a part of the Russian way of thinking. "Hey look at me", "I am powerful", just like a child they want to be recognized.

Yes, it must be so. I like read your posts. Keep on.

Too cool to be true. Real answer is much simpler, and there is at least one reason why eastern ukraine must and will be either neutral, either Russian. This reason is beyond care about Donbass population. Think harder!

PS: And about Poland, if not willing to come to coexist in mutual respect one day - you will be afraid. Enough not to do anything stupid. Russia will live without polish respect for another millenia easily. ;)

@Velund
russia loving peace would immediately gain respect in Poland. We are, after all, one family.