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Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 2



Cojestdocholery
17 May 2022  #2251

farmers"

There is nothing wrong with farmers.
Here, he is a professional I can respect even if he is an enemy.

youtu.be/dUlgd7HZtYU

hey cojestdocholery

Get lost drifter, you are city trash living in the guttters, who cares what you think or not. Same with those foreigners in foreign countries, do I need to care? Should they care what I think about them? You are stupid aren't you. Don't bother me again.

shows who cares about you more - Russians or Germans.

Are you trying to be funny? I care about my rabbits too.
I would rather you both stopped careing so much and would mind your own business.

Crnogorac3
17 May 2022  #2252

The consequences of a Russian tank hitting an Opel Frontera off-road vehicle with Ukrainian militants (like a Volkssturm). 5 200x, 1 miraculously survived.

CONTENT WARNING

18+ (there are dead people)

t.me/DonbassDevushka/7175

But according to CNN the Ukrainians are "winning".

Paulina
17 May 2022  #2253

One country wanted to erase you, while the other country was trying to convince you

I don't equate the Nazi ideology with the Soviet one. I'd rather live under communism in Poland than under the Nazi occupation, obviously. The thing is, I'd rather not be forced to make such a choice in the first place. I'd rather live in a free, democratic Poland. When you really liberate a country, you leave it alone afterwards.

The grotesque nature of the Soviet state meant that its hand was felt heavily throughout the entire geography.

This Soviet state was run by someone though... Not by aliens from outerspace, but by what is now Russia. You fail to take responsibility for that. By "responsibility" I mean moral one ("Stalin was from Georgia!" "The NKVD were all Jews!", etc.)

That's one thing.

Another problem is either ignorance of crimes committed by the Soviet Union and the Soviet Army against Poles, Poland and other nations or outright denial on the side of pro-Putin Russians. Russians aren't being educated about this at school and by the media.

Why is that a problem? Besides not giving symbolic justice to the victims, all this whitewashing of Russian history (not only Soviet one) results in lack of understanding of neighbouring nations. When Russians see Soviet Army memorials being taken away (do they even know where they're going?) they cry "Russophobia!" and think that Poles are doing that because they're "Nazis" or whatever. They become angry, hostile and in the end - hateful. And this shows lack of historical knowledge. Because if they knew why those memorials are being moved, if they walked in our shoes for a bit (that's called empathy) they would be grateful that we're moving those memorials to Soviet Army cemeteries, instead of destroying them completely.

mafketis
17 May 2022  #2254

The only thing Poland gets out of this conflict is even more uber drivers

See? A fundamental misunderstanding....

Crnogorac3
17 May 2022  #2255

A Russian tank tore apart a Frontera (ukro volkssturm) full of ukrop soldiers.

The Russians are annihilating them literally. From trenches with artillery to ukro technics.

Bobko_V
17 May 2022  #2256

I mean moral one ("Stalin was from Georgia!" "The NKVD were all Jews!", etc.)

This is a tough one for sure - you may be waiting a long time. Apologizing for everything is something very difficult for Russians to swallow. I could try to explain why, but think you'll just say I'm prejudiced again.

Here it goes: Russians, as we understand ourselves, are the biggest suckers in all of history as an ethnicity. First we had to invite Scandinavians to rules us, then it was Mongols, then a German dynasty, then a bunch of Jews, a Georgian, and some Ukranians. The enterprise called "Russia" has almost never been run to the benefit of actual Russians. Any kind of atrocities meted out by these Germans, Jews, Georgians, etc to the many different people of the empire, almost always landed hardest on Russians. This is why it is difficult to listen to Ukrainians or Kazakhs moaning about the Holodomor being an engineered genocide, when you know that Russia lost even more people to famine in those years, mostly along the Volga. It's why its difficult to listen to Poles about Katyn, when nearly every single one of us has a relative executed or disappeared in the purges of the 1930s.

Every former Soviet republic is now allowed to feel proud of its historic roots and culture, except Russians. We're supposed to walk with our heads hung low, and constantly pour ash on ourselves. While everyone around can go as crazy as they want with nationalism, when a Russian makes a peep about it - its fascism and imperialism. Being Russian is like being a poor white person in America - the only group that it is safe for everyone to sh!t on without being accused of being politically incorrect. That's sort of it, in a nutshell.

On a more colorful level, I sincerely believe that Russians are actually the most harmless people. If contrasted with a Ukrainian, what defines the Russian's mentality is our miserable experience of serfdom. If the Ukrainian is a greedy independent peasant farmer that looks only for his own, a Russian is a serf that's never owned anything and relies for everything on community, or "obschina". For a Russian, its always a good deed to steal from his rich baryn (pan in your language), and quickly spend it on a drink with friends before the inevitable whipping comes. For a Russian the most important thing is loyalty to community, because without community you are nothing. Thinking of yourself is a vice, whereas in Ukraine it is a virtue. I'd say this is the biggest difference between us, given that we're basically the same people genetically. We lived under the tsars, while they lived on their own in the wild praries. For Russians, it became an us-versus-them mentality (them being rich people, the government, foreigners, etc), whereas for Ukrainians it became a "just leave me alone" attitude. Russians like to live large and have a good time (if just for a day), while Ukrainians like to huddle back to their house and count their groshy.

Lenka
17 May 2022  #2257

Every former Soviet republic is now allowed to feel proud of its historic roots and culture, except Russians

Because it was your freakin government. It is Russians that feel all sentimental for the SU symbols.

Bobko_V
17 May 2022  #2258

@Lenka

Maybe Indian people don't like to see the Queen being honored, or people being issued Orders of the British Empire? It's also alright for French people to cherish De Gaulle, despite him massacring Algerians. Japan can visit memorials dedicated to war criminals. Yet Russia is not allowed to feel proud about the single greatest war in its history where we literally saved ourselves from extinction, along with another big chunk of humanity? Do you know why we feel sentimental about those symbols? Because of that war dummy - that is 99.999999% of the reason. They are the symbols of victory and our strength as a nation.

Crnogorac3
17 May 2022  #2259

The Russian T-90 pulls a captured ukrainian T-80

youtu.be/3QAiAaBsR3Y

Terminators have started working alongside Russian tanks...

fb.watch/d3HrS0azae/

And now a little bit of the really good stuff...

Ukrainian counterattack near Zaporozhye - The Ukrainian army launched a counterattack on the side of the Russian army. The result was catastrophic: all tanks and infantry fighting vehicles were lost, hundreds of soldiers were killed, and the Ukrainian group was destroyed...

youtu.be/_3_DXjPznqI

@Cojestdocholery

Zbornaja rabota jako... :)

Lenka
17 May 2022  #2260

They are the symbols of victory and our strength as a nation.

They are also symbols of destruction and tyranny to others. And when you are so proud do you remember you:
- started it alongside your buddy
- was part of a group so it's not only your victory?

Bobko_V
17 May 2022  #2261

@Lenka

He was not our buddy, he was simply the only guy who would deal with us for the things we needed, as the rest of you treated us as complete untouchables. Two untouchables met, and made a temporary deal to mutual benefit. This wonderful buddy of ours, turned out, wanted to attack us all along.

Yeah, we keep hearing about how Private Ryan saved us from Nazism. Too bad he didn't care until Pearl Harbor (at this point we were effecting the miraculous counter offensive under Moscow), and didn't actually show up until the whole thing was decided. Do not tire me with stories of your daring feats in Africa and the Pacific. We recycled more Germans in one week than your entire theaters throughout the whole war.

Paulina
17 May 2022  #2262

It's also alright for French people to cherish De Gaulle, despite him massacring Algerians.

That's between the French and the Algerians. And yeah, the Japanese have a problem with their history too (although I think that not as much as Russians do), hence the tensions with South Korea in this regard. I can understand the South Koreans well. But could we focus on our mutual Polish-Russian history for a minute?

Yet Russia is not allowed to feel proud about the single greatest war in its history where we literally saved ourselves from extinction

Of course you can feel proud of winning the war. But at the same time don't claim that the Soviet Union and the Soviet Army were just liberators and everything was fine and dandy.

Do you know why we feel sentimental about those symbols?

And yet you're terribly outraged about Ukrainians feeling sentimental about UPA symbols and Bandera... Don't you realise you're being hypocrites?

Btw...

@Bobko, Velund, you do realise that there is such a thing as Soviet Army cemeteries in Poland, right? And that Poland isn't leveling them to the ground? Poles show respect to the dead, unlike Russian soldiers apparently:

gazetaprawna.pl/wiadomosci/swiat/artykuly/8394871,cmentarz-stary-krym-mariupol-rosjanie-czolgi-nagrobki.html

And in case you didn't believe me about the existence of Soviet Army cemeteries in "Nazi" Poland - here are photos of some of many of such cemeteries:

Warsaw:

warszawa

A cemetery of Soviet Army officers in Wrocław:

wroclaw

Szczecin:

szczecin2

szczecin1

We have a Soviet Army cemetery in Kielce too. And a cemetery of Soviet POWs who were kept in horrific conditions and died in a Nazi camp. Here are photos from the 60th anniversary of creation of that camp:

kielce.uw.gov.pl/pl/biuro-prasowe/aktualnosci/993,Hold-szczatkom-6-tysiecy-radzieckich-jencow-oddali-wspolnie-dyplomaci-z-Rosji-Uk.html

The guy under the black umbrella is a then president of my city.

Velund
17 May 2022  #2263

None of you answered my question

I can provide you with some detailed technical data about 9M22C rockets used there...

missilery.info/missile/grad/m3-21

Warhead part the projectile is designed to create mass fires on terrain with dry vegetative cover and with flammable combustible materials. The ignition element is a hexagonal shell of magnesium alloy ML-5, in the blind socket of which a pyrotechnic composition is pressed.

It can be fired using 9P138 (9K55 Grad-1 MLRS), 9P139 (9K55-1 Grad-2 MLRS), BM-21 (9K51 Grad MLRS), BM-21V (M-21 field rocket system), 9A51 (9K59 Prima MLRS).

The powder grade for the solid propellant ballistic charges is RSI-12M. To ensure improved accuracy at intermediate ranges the MZ-21 projectiles are equipped only with large brake rings. Small brake rings are not used. Burning incendiary elements are developed over an area of about 6400 square meters (80x80), creating pockets of fire.


On a website above, composition of pyrotechnic composition is presented, and there is no phosphorus included.

Lenka
17 May 2022  #2264

and made a temporary deal to mutual benefit.

To attack others and take their land. Such sweethearts.

Too bad he didn't care until Pearl Harbo

And you didn't until they attacked you. Wasn't exactly the start of the war.

The difference was that the Americana let the countries go and shape their fate while SU didn't.

Btw yeah, Russia did great winning that war. Such a shame they started it too.

Bobko_V
17 May 2022  #2265

And yet you're terribly outraged about Ukrainians feeling sentimental about UPA symbols and Bandera...

In Russian, there is an expression - "comparing a finger and an anus" - this is what you did. Did UPA and Bandera liberate any town, or city, let alone a country? Did its actions lead to the cessation of a genocide against Jews, or did it actually further the Holocaust through supporting it? Was the Soviet Union led by a German intelligence agent, as Bandera was, before being imprisoned by his patrons in a death camp when he was no longer useful? Did the Soviet army, burn barns full of Polish women and children?

Paulina
17 May 2022  #2266

Did UPA and Bandera liberate any town, or city, let alone a country?

In their minds they did - from Polish opression. You wrote that Soviet symbols for you are "symbols of victory and your strength as a nation". For Ukrainians Bandera and UPA are symbols of their fight for independence.

Did the Soviet army, burn barns full of Polish women and children?

No, Soviet soldiers first raped them and murdered them and only later they burned the houses. I guess you didn't know?

Velund
17 May 2022  #2267

In their minds they did - from Polish opression.

Let's return to marszalek Pilsudski memory... He once said:

Racja jest jak dupa, kazdy ma swoja.

I would agree again. ;)

Queen Catherine wasn't as bad.....

And started from expelling all that german relatives that start to fly like a horde of flies to a piece of sh*t almost immediately after she got her crown. ;) In fact, Catherine managed to become more russian that most Russians was. ;)

Paulina
17 May 2022  #2268

but think you'll just say I'm prejudiced again.

Yes, I think you are. You're blaming everything on others. It's so immature, so childish... :/

I sincerely believe that Russians are actually the most harmless people.

Yeah... We can see that in Ukraine... perfectly... And Putin is what? He isn't a Russian? When all the atrocities committed by Russian soldiers in Ukraine will come to light - who are you going to blame then? Martians?

I rest my case... Ręce opadają...

Lenka
17 May 2022  #2269

given as much attention as the United States textbooks devote to covering the excesses of the Union Army.

So XXI century Russia I like XVIII century US...

And it's not internal matter. Ukraine is a sovereign state so try harder

GefreiterKania
17 May 2022  #2270

Russia is not allowed to feel proud (...) victory and our strength as a nation.

Yes, yes. Russia proud, russia fight, russia win, russia strong. We get it, we all read countryball comic strips. :) The problem is that in real life these days there is not much for russia to feel proud about; your willingness to fight and strength are questionable (to say the least) and the chances for victory rather slim. So maybe, just maybe, you could stop acting like a bunch of butt-heart countryballs and get over the fact that you are not a superpower anymore. Use some butt-pain ointment and live with it. Tough sh*t.

Look at Austria - they accepted that they are no longer a European power and they act accordingly to their current position in the world. Take example of them and act according to your position of a country with a GDP lower than Italy, GDP per capita lower than Panama and population lower than Bangladesh. To cut the long story short - GET REAL.

Lenka
17 May 2022  #2271

If it's recognised internationally and the people inside want it that way, yes. And Ukrainians are showing clearly they do.

Strzelec35
17 May 2022  #2272

slavic world is last final world it has to thrive and survive. great image here guys of slavic world today:

img2.thejournal.ie/inline/5765995/original/?width=630&version=5765995

Lenka
17 May 2022  #2273

The thing is Russia has so many things that if governed correctly would see it grow...

Just the history, the mix of Europe and Asia etc...

Instead they attack Ukraine and have most of the developed world against it...

Bobko
17 May 2022  #2274

So XXI century Russia I like XVIII century US...

Sorry, cannot ignore the error. US civil war was in the 19th century. They call it a 19th century war, involving twentieth century weapons, and 18th century tactics. US Generals like William Tecumseh Sherman are considered by some to have invented the modern concept of total war. In his famous March to the Sea, Sherman basically leveled the state of Georgia. Today only academics remember this.

Paulina
17 May 2022  #2275

This will be an internal matter

Meaning? Swept under the carpet?

given as much attention as the United States textbooks devote to covering theexcesses of the Union Army as it made its way through the South.

I don't know about the US textbooks, but at least there are articles in American media about it:

gettysburgcompiler.org/2015/10/05/finally-speaking-up-sexual-assault-in-the-civil-war-era/

theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/02/gender-race-and-rape-during-the-civil-war/283754/

And it's not internal matter. Ukraine is a sovereign state so try harder

Exactly.

Lenka
17 May 2022  #2276

Sorry, cannot ignore the error.

No reason to be sorry, you are right. Thanks.

The point stil stands though

KorkiTaczer
17 May 2022  #2277

Pilsudsky was right. I agree

Didn't he call Russia "asian freak" or "asian monster"? And correct me if I'm wrong, but he also believed that Russians are the end result of a system, in which people are treated as garbage. So it's nice that you agree with Pilsudski ;)

Paulina
17 May 2022  #2278

Piłsudski about Russians:

m.fronda.pl/a/jozef-pilsudski-o-rosjanach-jakze-aktualne-dzis-1,174546.html

Velund, what do you think? Do you agree with Piłsudski this time too? :)) I've got to say... A lot of what he said rings true, especially nowadays...

Crnogorac3
17 May 2022  #2279

And it's not internal matter. Ukraine is a sovereign state

This is not a so called "brother-war" between Slavic nations. This is a civil war inside one nation, inside Russia.

Paulina
17 May 2022  #2280

@Crnogorac3, no, it isn't.


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