Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 3

I'm sorry to read this. Understand that many of these young men were brutalized through a 4 year long war, and absolute poverty and starvation in the decade preceding it.

So much pain from that war. Wounds that just don't seem to heal, in some cases.

Can you honestly say it was spilled for Poland though? The SU wanted to beat the Third Reich and establish itself as one of the world's superpowers. German occupied Poland was merely on the route to this final victory. And on this route the Red Army, apart from fighting the Germans - which they did ferociously (nobody in their right mind can ever deny that), watched the Warsaw Uprising drown in the blood of insurgents and civilians, liquidated major Home Army commanders and basically occupied Poland turning it into a vassal state. Sure, it was an incomparably more benevolent and less genocidal occupation than the German one, but an occupation nonetheless. Having said all that, I bet that a large part of the older generation felt gratitude to the soldiers who drove Germans away. After all, we read Generalplan Ost, and we knew the role Germans planned for us after their final victory.

I suprised to hear it. I would think you are inteligent enough to answer your own question with - no.
Isn't that a logical and obvious answer?
You seemed like a logical guy not a Russian romantic.

for Stalin, actually....

And that was long ago. Stop making WWII a central part of your idenitty... it's necrophilic and gross... I realize there's precious little else that russians can be proud of but rather than hit everybody over the head with WWII try to make a better future without invading other countries and without stealing....

the problem is russians never had to collectively acknowledge their failures and crimes the way Germans did....

Until they do it will remain a one trick pony - it won a war over 70 years ago... no one cares.

My family suffered under the Stalinist repressions of the '30s. My ancestor did not die for Stalin.

Yeah he did... who sent him to Poland?


Don't you want justice for that? Why are russians so blase about soviet repression against them?

@maf

Most accurate answer would have to be... Hitler?


Against who? Against ghosts?

I think he died a soldier's death, following his commanders' orders. If he got orders to drive his tank to Hungary, Romania or Estonia instead, he would do it. Fate directed him to Poland, where he carried out his duty to the very end, like 600,000 of his compatriots. The end result was that Poland was liberated from Germans, which definitely saved our nation from horrible fate, prepared by nazis for all Slavs. But don't you think that saying that he died for Poland would be stretching it a bit?

Did Polish soldiers at Monte Cassino die for Italy? Hell no! They died for Poland, fighting in this far away land. Did Polish 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division bled itself dry at Lenino for the Soviet Union? Hell no! They fought for Poland. Did General Maczek's tankists die for the Netherlands? Hell no! They died for Poland, fighting in this foreign land. You get my drift.

Against the government? Has any soviet/russian government acknowledged individual cases of repression? If not, why not?

Things can never improve unless russians stop being passive shlubs and stand up and act like citizens.

Well on my wife's side her Grandfather fought alongside the Soviets - at Seelow and Berlin and was a fairly genuine Communist well into the 60s plus he had a real hatred of Germans. He died in 2002 and didn't mention the war much and I imagine he probably did some things he regretted. As Maf said a problem is that Soviet society went too far in lionizing the veterans (same in US and Britain)

Another problem is that militarists had Putin's ear, just a Bush II became surrounded by gung ho idealogues who thought Iraq was a good idea and easy to conquer.

He doesn't, he Russian romantic it means he belives in ruski mir concept.
I thought he is too level headed for that but seems I was wrong.

Ok, I can understand this. Perhaps I romanticized it over much. However, I didn't lie, when I said we have pride in that he died in some foreign land («дед в Польше, в танке сгорел»). At the same time... I have to agree that in the root of it - he died for our home, or under orders - so you are right. He didn't give a **** about Poland, probably - other than being a "liberator of Poland".

It's a complex thing, this f*ckin history. It's very hard to separate these things - "who fought for whom". Families want to take a very Hollywood angle on likely banal actions. Your Monte Cassino example was a good one.

I suspect Novichok can probably set us straight on a lot of this real quick.

Cut him some slack - we believe in the Holiest Rzeczpospolita too, don't we? Gloria Excelsior Sacrum Imperium, and all that. Why can't he love his country as much as we do ours? And level-headedness is overrated anyway.


Tell me about it! Life was so much simpler and easier to explain to me, before I joined this forum. :)

russia slips further and further into full nazi style fascism

Solovyov talking to children....

twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1565317738226192390

Meanwhile Lavror recycles a speech by Hitler (change Sudetenland to Moldova and Germans to russians and it's basically the same thing....)

twitter.com/ZMiST_Ua/status/1565306064249262080

It is not quite the same thing. European and Polish way of see things is not the same as Moscow see it. Even thought on the surface it seems to be smilar.


Not really. I would say some kids on the nerd side would see it that way but not that many. Generally I would say that our populace are rather slighty cynical and focused on today not same past glory.

I know. I suspect that deep down there is something noble that drives this internationalist strain in the collective Russian soul.


Hey! *pouts*

A video for Poles on the 1st of September from the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine :

twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1565309566836957188?s=20&t=AwtwHcaya0O3JSGHhWuqzA

"If there's anything that Poles understand... It's that nobody should have to face the darkness alone."

@Paulina

Nice post!

Does anyone remember when Trump warned Germany about Putan during his speech at the UN and the Germans scoffed at him?

Who's laughing now!

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@Joker
Excellent point. Trump did exactly that. Have to give credit where its due.

@Bobko
You are right, the world does need Russia. It also needs China. But the world needs them to not be at war, and not trying to align with each other in order to become a Bi-polar power. The world needs three, possibly four distinct "leading" nations. All of them armed with nukes, and all of them lead by sensible people who can communicate.

Deals need to be made where every side gets a little of what they want. No one gets everything, and no one is a loser. That's how to move forward. The war being fought now is simply because of Putin's ego.

Lets assume Russia mobilizes a half million men. Lets assume they completely over run Ukraine in the process. Lets assume based on what the Russians have said that a more friendly government is installed. What then? Ukrainians are expected to just go home and take it? Or are they expected to stay in other countries? How does this new Ukraine move forward? How does Russia move forward under sanctions that will not be lifted? Assuming those same sanctions would then also apply to Ukraine and any other country in the Russian sphere of influence?

My point being with those questions is that Russia has already lost. The fighting may continue but the war is really over. Europe is lost to Russia and Russian people for the coming decades. The US for Russians will go back to being a very hostile place. This is the future Putin has created. A republican will be the next US president, and I can assure you that the aid Ukraine is getting will begin to vanish quickly. So the complete taking of Ukraine in two years is possible. But to think a republican will do a deal with Russia after this is simply children's thinking.

Two interesting updates from generalsvr....

First (predictable) the Lukoil guy assassination was carried out with the approval of putain...

twitter.com/generalsvr_en/status/1565443936293982211

Second (which I had not seen coming) an update on the 'recruit in prisons and send them to the front' (short story: not... going... well....)

money quote: "the 2nd army of the world, after six months of the war, is forced to recruit "roosters" from Russian colonies (prisons) to participate in hostilities on the territory of another country, this is not an army, but a shame."

note: "rooster" is apparently russian prison slang for Polish 'cwel' or American 'punk' or '*****' (a low status man used sexually by other prisoners) I have no idea what the British term would be....

twitter.com/generalsvr_en/status/1565443263422660611

u really are the conspiracy anti ruski version of qanon. shows that people with a high education can be just as deluded, really all of his previous posts as well as that ukr racing car driver with the fsb leaks have been debunked and ridicululed by anyone with a modicum of kowlege. yes like qanon takes grains of truth and spins a great yarn.. quit while ure ahead

It's like saying the murder of Anna Politkovskaya was carried out with Putins knowledge, or perhaps some lackey like kadyrow who thought it would please him? or maybe putin was pissed off that it happened on his bday cause of the bad PR?, as if some random twitter account would know?

@amiga500


Has your account been taken by a RuSSian troll? lol
Putin and Kadyrov are suspected for a good reason. Especially Kadyrov - do you even know why?
It was never found out who ordered Anna Politkovskaya's killing. After some time three Chechens were accused of killing her, then acquitted and then a few years later the same men were again accused and this time sentenced. God knows whether they really did it or were just scapegoats.

Better educate yourself about what has been happening to journalists and oppositionists in RuSSia during Putin's reign...

As 'General' Gerasimov aid himself, it's only August and they're already running out of degenerates.

I take in a _lot_ of sources and don't believe _any_ of them uncritically. Both generalsvr and the winds of change letters have mentioned things before they became widely known or before they happened.

How much time have you actually spent in Poland? In this part of the world informal channels of communication are imporant and often pretty accurate (you take regular and irregular sources of information and triangulate them to get a realistic picture of what's going on.

I don't pay attention to any western msm on Ukraine (sadly... Polish either most Polish media just outsources to CNN and the like) I used sources on the ground or from russia/ukraine who know the political and cultural context which means I often find out things faster than they're reported in the mainstream media.

Or I find out things that explain things that appear in the msm that aren't put in context.

If I link to generalsvr it's not an endorsement.... it's making the information (often though not always helpful) a bit wider known


So what is 'cwel' in Britain? (as I mentioned 'punk' and 'b[tch' are the more common terms in American prisons....)

I am. Great post, Joker.


Then he could just as easily invade Mongolia. It seems he had special reason to invade U. Hmm...I wonder what that might be...


Some died after a short flight from high elevation. Therefore, what, educator?

No idea.

There's probably such a word. Gerasimov's quote translated as degenerates and he was referring to the rank and file enlisted men.

Ask Bobko, he will explain it to you.


I wasn't talking to you, sociopath.

@Novichok
He would have had better luck with Mongolia. Putin actually thought that Ukrainian people would welcome him. Thats how Fing stupid this was. Now he has a war he has already lost, and it wont be long before people begin to question his leadership internally.

Especially if Putin starts the draft as has been suggested.
His popularity will drop like a rock in water knowing their little boy is going to get blown because of dying Putin's ego.