Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 4

@Tacitus
UK aid 7.8 note it is outside of EU because their are two different totals. Germany 5.44 first color, 7.17 percent of EU aid second color. This is a terrible way to graph things as it is really unclear.

Here is the best report I am aware of and its nicely detailed with regular updates. ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-support-tracker/

Poland's ahead of both Germany and UK in terms of commitments in % of GDP (ranks 3, 14 and 6 respectively). :)

This is true.

The UK, the US, Poland, leaders of the free world.


it's not about graphs, rules, regulations, small print or clauses. These mean nothing unless you're a pen-pushing bean counter swigging laxatives in a grey office.

What matters is spirit, determination, morale, and a few intangibles. If this has ever been demonstrated in a war, Ukraine are demonstrating it now.


This is a good point.

And if the rumours are true about the 400 Challenger 1 tanks that the UK may buy back from Jordan and supply to Ukraine, one person who definitely won't be needing laxatives is Vladimir Putin.

Well said!


I have to say that I had my reservations towards the "perfidious Albion" in the past, but these days - thanks to UK's unwavering support for Ukraine - my respect for your country grows exponentially. *thumbs up!*

That would be an absolute game changer. There would be nothing Russia could do to defend against that kind of firepower. Jordan retired those tanks this year. Where has Jordan stood on the war issues?

That I'm not sure, however I know they have a very close relationship with the US in part due to the delicate situation with Israel and their neighbours. Plus of course, the King of Jordan in 75% English and the state was created by Britain.

... apart from more Poseidon nuclear torpedo threats of 500-metre radioactive waves sinking Britain :D

Not for long.. Not for long.. Buahahahah! Thankfully the centuries long hegonomy of Europe by the krauts and frogs is coming to it's deserved end.

You know how it goes....

@Bratwurst Boy
Now with the MOD idiot gone, your new MOD will be making the call on tanks for Ukraine. Putin has to have some dirt on all these people or they are dirty in some other way. There is absolutely no excuse for how they have responded so poorly when they could have really helped lead things.

*sacrifices a goat to gods*

What is a MOD?

And it's not likely to change....

twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1615306237935067137

russia owns Germany's @ss and Germany is doing everything it can to support russia (while giving Ukraine some lip service....)


Minister of Defense

Numbers dont mean anything, unless you you are responsible for planning to win a war. Then suddenly they become everything.


Well said. It will be interesting to see how once this war is over Warsaw will react when Zelensky no longer request tanks from Poland, but a large share of the money Poland receives from the EU structural funds.


Once could hardly ask for a better representation of Visengrad spreading hate and distorting the truth.

Minister of Defense?

Erm.....

Germany is Ukraine's largest civilian bilateral donor

According to the latest OECD DAC figures, Germany is Ukraine's largest bilateral donor (with payments amounting to around 220 million US dollars (OECD official development assistance 2018-2019) - ahead of the United States with just under 200 million US dollars. In addition to this, Germany makes contributions through the EU (according to the OECD DAC, more than 400 million euro in 2018-2019, which is the largest amount contributed by any donor).

Since 2014, Germany has provided a total of approximately 1.83 billion euro in bilateral support....

....some "lip service".....


...so not MODerator! :)

Should such a large country, never mind one devastated by war, join the EU, there will have to be the mother of all structural funds. One to dwarf all current funding that the EU pays out.

If the EU don't want to do it, there are a couple of major countries outside the EU (coincidentally speaking the same language) who will be happy to help (and scoop up the reconstruction contracts) instead. Both of those entities are Unions as well...

Assuming the EU continues to exist in its present form and/or dynamics.


Fortunately wars are neither fought nor won by Cost Accountants.

This isn't some far away conflict in Afghanistan or East Timor; it is an existential struggle for freedom of our continent.

Some governments would do well to understand that; the alternative for them is economically and politically grim.

Why not? The Brexit made the EU popular again...


The survey that was carried out both in 2016-2017 and again between 2020-2022 shows that public support for leaving the European Union has waned.

In the study, first reported by the Irish Times, respondents were asked the hypothetical question: "Imagine there were a referendum in [your country] tomorrow about membership of the European Union. Would you vote for [your country] to remain a member of the European Union or to leave the European Union?".

The new data shows that support in favour of leaving the EU dropped in every member state.

thelocal.de/20230112/public-support-in-europe-for-leaving-eu-collapses-since-brexit-new-survey-shows

Quite the contrary....the EU is growing....now Croatia becomes a member....

The Brexit did for the EU what the russian invasion did for NATO, it seems!

theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/support-for-leaving-eu-has-fallen-significantly-across-bloc-since-brexit

Really? The USA perhaps if they do not elect an isolist Republican in 2024. But there is little reason to believe that this would be popular in the UK, in the midst of a recession and a few years after the Brexit campaign won with 250m lie.


I think the EU's future is brighter than it looked one year ago. Who knows, depending on how long Ukraine needs to win the war and fullfill the criterias, then we might see them joining the EU simultaneously with the UK in 10 to 15 years.


Not fought, but certainly won. The side which has more ressources and uses those ressources more effectively usually ends the war. "Amateurs talk tactics, Professionals talk logistics."

Yes. Let's wait and see


I can think of another German (though in fact he was Austrian by birth) who also thought he understood us and could predict what we'd do ..


Strategy actually, as that will known quite would better read. Logistics is part of that

And of course cunning, perfidy and a willingness to ignore rules.

And tanks are being delivered.

Amazing that there's so much in this thread about Germany when on effect they're doing bugger all and trying there damndest to prevent others from helping.

Fortunately not everyone in this world is beholden to their legalistic and mercantilist clutches.

As for rejoining the EU, we may or may not; it's our call. There would nevertheless need to be major changes in the way it operates, especially the concept of standardisation and any risk to erosion of the sovereignty of its independent members.

See?

That's what I meant in yesterday's post.....using Germany's war past whenever you see fit, even to shoot (very) cheap shots, even when totally idiotic and actually totally inept, but at the same time jammering about Germany's lacking will to go to war, especially with a former enemy.

That's really cheap....and hypocritical! Bah!

*takes hat and leaves*

Past, present and future are all the same thing. We've had people in this thread praising the First Reich (the Holy Roman Empire), the Second Reich and also suggesting that Germany currently somehow 'leads' Europe. The German word for "leader" is a dangerous one, as Poland well knows.

It's important to learn from mistakes, or you can easily be trapped by them, as r*SSia is now.

It is a brave thing to move on and especially for an Empire to forge a new role in the world. We did it, Poland is doing it, and Ukraine has yet to find hers.

The old Europe is however gone and times they are a-changing.

This war will either escalate horribly or end with r*SSia's capitulation. Perhaps both. One thing is clear though; the Europe that will emerge from it is a different Europe to that of the past decade or so, and all bets are off about how our continent will look in a few decades' time.

Warsaw will react quite well, especially that we don't need European funds and should have refused receiving them long time ago. Wealth doesn't come from handouts (however large they might be) but from hard work, discipline and thrift. There's no such thing as "free money" and, as we could observe recently, there are always strings attached to it.

I would be more than happy if Poland did two things: gave away all that we can possibly give to Ukraine (in terms of material, humanitarian and military help) and reject the European funds. Just say that we don't want them. Our country has been through much hardship, wars and poverty, and we survived; we will also survive without European handouts but nobody will dictate to us what we can and cannot do in our own country.


Hear, hear!

Yeah sure. 2nd largest supplier of aid = bugger all.


Leaving aside that there are indeed very praiseworthy aspects of the HRE, (and some problematic ones like with every entity) calling it "First Reich" is either historically inept or a sign that you follow Nazi propaganda. In this case it may be the former, but it is nevertheless a mistake one ahould best avoid.


Hence the decision to let the USA take the lead on Ukraine. Germany will again play a key role after the war is over and it is time to deal with the political and economic consequences of the war.


Wow. Did I touch a nerve or something? It is not my fault that the British attititude towards Europe is what it is... .

But Germany already can't wait to get back to business as usual with Russia as soon as the war is over, and Scholz said as much. How well do you think it was/will be received in Ukraine and how much willing they will be to be led politically by Germany?

What your country needs to do is to get rid of Russian assets (difficult, I know - so many of them in media, academia and administration) and start to slowly rebuild your credibility that you lost by almost single-handedly breeding the putinist monster for all those years. Yes, I know - the aim was the economic domination in Europe by utilising cheap Russian energy sources, using any means possbile, including ignoring European solidarity and bypassing/endangering Ukraine, Poland and the Baltics; but something went wrong: Ukraine was supposed to surrender quickly but they stubbornly continue to fight. Verdammt! You overestimated both Russian military power and your own cunning.

Oh, and I don't think there are many people who buy this "Germany made a mistake", "it was a mistake to support Putin" nonsense. Germany doesn't make mistakes - it was planned, long term policy, executed ruthlessly and with iron consequence for all those years. Mistake my arse.

Thank God for the USA and NATO or who knows what the German reaction would be without Uncle Sam around to introduce some discipline.

That is precisely how it was described. Not my term.

To listen to some in Germany, you'd think that every other nation was rife with Nazis except them.


Whose decision?


We're in Europe, and among European countries, together with Poland, at the forefront of the war effort in Ukraine.

Anyone who describes it as such is mistaken. The whole historical concept is wrong, since it intentionally leaves out the Weimar Republic (which was offically named Deutsches Reich), despite it existing longer than the Third Reich.


You can find stupid people in every country. It only becomes problematic once they come into power, which at least for Germany is a long way off.


Scholz "Keine Alleingänge". Others followed and waited for the USA to act on Western tanks before taking actions.


Good to know. You seemed to be drifting away during the last few years.

Sounds legalistic.


It's not his decision to make. The first countries to react were the UK and the US, the two leading states in NATO. Poland were very prompt to react as well.


No, that will take millions of years, and most of mainland Europe will be under water by then.

Remember though, that the EU is not Europe and Europe is not the EU.

To move away from Germany, a minor player in this global issue, here are the sad stats from Dnipro. Death to all orcs!

Search and rescue operation in Dnipro has been completed:

- 39 people were rescued, including 6 children;
- 44 people died, including 5 children;
- 79 people were injured, including 16 children;
- 47 reported as missing (23 found dead, 4 found alive).

See, although the cult of the butcher Stepan wants to impose itself on the whole of the former Ukraine, it is realistically present only among the Uniate population. Monuments to Stepan Bandera in former Ukraine

Look, it's the same thing with the butcher Roman.

Roman Shukhevych, the butcher of Galicia - Volhyn

Monuments and busts:

Ivano-Frankovsk
Kalush (Ivano-Frankovsk region)
Knyaginichi (Ivano-Frankovsk region)
Tishkovci (Ivano-Frankovsk region)
Tyudiv (Ivano-Frankovsk region)
Lvov (microdistrict of Belogorsha)
Volya Zaderevacka (Lvov region)
Morshin (Lvov region)
Lvov (Lichakov Cemetery)
Gorishni (Lvov region)
Zabolotivci (Ternopil Region)
Khmelnytskyi

◾A talented person is talented in everything. A Wagner soldier parodies the Ukrainian president!

t.me/DonbassDevushka/41479

😁

A rarely charming young man. It can be seen that he is a musician of the vocal-instrumental ensemble - the Wagner group.

Zelensky appeared before the US Congress to beg for more money and weapons to continue exterminating the Ukrainian nation in order to fill his own pockets, the pockets of Ukrainian elite and to enrich the US military apparatus.

t.me/DonbassDevushka/41250