Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 4

Those Abram tanks are going to have a HUGE problem refueling on the battlefield in Ukraine.
Abrams tanks run on a gas turbine engine which needs jet fuel.
So there's a specific type of fuel that powers the Abrams, and we've got to first make sure that a pipeline, literally and figuratively, is available to Ukraine.

A M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank gets. 0.6 miles per gallon. 60 gallons per hour when traveling cross-country.
30+ gallons per hour while operating at a tactical ideal.
10 gallons basic idle.
A mine plow will increase the fuel consummation rate of a tank by 25 percent.
Give that some thought.

And isn't it interesting that it happened not long after those rare metal deposits were discovered in Sweden? And Erdogan so eagerly making a big deal out of this incident and saying Turkey will block Sweden's NATO bid...

Is Ukraine going to launch a strike on Moscow is my question.
Cities that are pampered, lazy, that thought they lived in a different reality, such as Moscow, St. Petersburg, and Yekaterinburg, will be subject to strikes soon.

I have suggested this months ago which might have ended this war by now.

t.me/EternalMuscovite/38226

😁

It's the highest performing tank but it's expensive and logistically challenging to use and maintain to its maximum potential (it can be utilized at less than it's maximum potential if you compromise with lower grade fuels among other maintenance factors).

It's not really the best tank for Ukraine in it's current circumstances, but in the spirit of giving they're sending some anyway.

So were Wehrmacht's tanks in 1943.

Good. Russian media are threatening to level Berlin to the ground in retaliation for Leopards. They do need to be reminded about the option of levelling Russian cities to the ground in retaliation for Berlin. :):):)


Russians already know they have lost. It is only Putin`s fear for his life which fuels the conflict. If he admits Russian defeat, he will be a dead man.

Not really, the best performing tank 1943 was the russian T34.

Only when manned by a Polish crew.

Zelensky calls Putin a 'nobody'

Hey, Z, go for a ride in your limo and see what that "nobody" did to the landscape and apartment buildings...

BTW, if you didn't listen to US warmongers and paid attention to me, your ride would be a lot less bumpy. You could even go with Putin in his black convertible I envy him so much...

Much as it pains me to admit it, Pawian is spot on!

Those American tanks will be useless in Ukraine.
The German ones are best.

They may be necessary down the line though, if the war gets as bloody as some fear. The number of Leos that can be delivered/produced is simply much smaller than the theoretically available Abrama.

Apparently both of those tanks are excellent lethal machines.

But, they are heavy. I've read the Leos are extremely effective on paved surfaces, but have a tendency to get bogged down in mud-same as Abrams.

The Abrams are exceedingly complicated to maintain. Analysts that I've read are saying training Ukes to operate an Abrams is a task in itself, but to train the Ukes to maintain them will be a major problem. Maintaining a Leo isn't easy either from what I understand.

GEEZUS did I call it or what !


Now Ukraine got their tanks that they have been begging for and SURE ENOUGH, just like I predicted.....today Ukraine ask the U.S.A . for our F- 16 fighter jets !

Next they will be begging for American soldiers and that is where I draw the line and say enough is enough !
1. American money
2. American howitzers
3.More American money
4. American patriot missiles
5. More money
6.Top of the line American tanks
And the damn tanks are not even delivered yet and they now are crying for our F-16's.
WTF ! with or without American pilots ?
Put a damn Tomahawk missile down Putin's chimney and get this dog and pony show over with.

@johnny reb, not really, you didn't "call it":

"Netherlands open to supplying F-16 fighters to Ukraine if requested":

aerotime.aero/articles/netherlands-open-to-supplying-f-16-fighters-to-ukraine-if-requested

"Since the beginning of the invasion of their country by Russia, Ukrainian leaders have requested that Western nations supply them with modern warplanes. "

You are just hell bent to diminish me any way you can.
No Love, you are wrong.
I was talking about the U.S.A., not the Netherlands Hon.


Take note to the word "our" meaning the U.S.
Anything you can find to argue about as Polocks love to argue.
This is why you are so annoying.

@johnny reb, no, I'm just stating facts.


In this comment you wrote about "stealth bombers loaded with nukes", not F-16 :)

And Ukraine has been asking for modern warplanes (and older too) since the beginning of the invasion, so it's not a new request.


But Ukraine didn't ask for "your" F-16 in particular. It's a general request towards NATO:

cnbc.com/2023/01/26/ukraine-aims-for-f-16-fighter-jets-after-winning-battle-for-tanks.html

"Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky said Wednesday he had asked NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg for more assistance."

So it's not just about the US, but also other NATO countries, including the Netherlands.

Of course, the US as the country that manufactures F-16 would have to give permission to other countries to give them or sell them to Ukraine.

I have a new definition of "useful idiot"...

Useful idiot - a dead volunteer who left his family and friends and died in Ukraine for Z-P=0 while believing it was for "democracy" and "freedom".

A super useful idiot - a dead volunteer who could not even define "democracy".

Whether that plane carries nukes or not makes a pretty big difference :)


I don't argue for the sake of arguing. I reacted because I find the way you write about Ukraine's requests annoying. Well of course that they're going to be asking for modern warplanes, or any warplanes, or any weapons they can get their hands of or any help they can get. You'd be doing the same thing if your country was in the same situation, facing a more powerful enemy. You'd be BEGGING for any help your country and your people could get. So can you blame them?? If you have a problem with the fact that your country is helping Ukraine then take it up with your government, your politicians. Ukrainians are trying to defend their country against an invasion and they're doing it the way they can. There are very few countries on this planet even remotely as powerful as the US or as rich as the West, so USA wouldn't have to ask for help and that's great, but Ukraine isn't the US and it has to ask for help, because RuSSia is more powerful.

And if you're going to tell me that this isn't the US' or the West's problem, then I think you're wrong. Ukrainians are fighting this proxy war now for all of us, so we wouldn't have to fight RuSSia in the future. And they're paying a much higher price for that than you or we do.

@johnny reb
I don't think the inner cities of Russia will be direct targets, though I wish one was just to set an example. Crimea will be where they go after little Vlad. If Russia cannot hold on to Crimea, and all the oligarchs houses and apartment buildings are destroyed, it is over for little Vlad. Crimea is his only accomplishment in the last decade, and it means a lot to Russian people. If that is gone, Vlad is done.

Ukraine is asking for a lot. They have been asking for planes since the beginning of the war. The problem JR is expressing, and I have also expressed, is that Z keeps asking in a way as to make the west to feel obligated to it, and the west is not obligated to that or anything else. When the US is the one producing most of these requested weapons, the "ask" and the way the "ask" is made is what is producing "war fatigue" in the US.

The sentiments that Novi, JR and others have expressed about the US being tired of being the worlds police are genuine feelings in the US shared by a large number of people. While the US put itself in that position, other countries in the west have not stepped up to take over that position even temporarily and that is a problem. Berlin needs to be aware of the US citizens if it continues to fvck around and play games with weapons and deliveries. Anyone thinking political pressure inside the US will not reach levels that reduce help to Ukraine if the EU doesn't start stepping up more, does not understand the US mentality. The reason US troops are not in Ukraine is not because the US can't, it is because the US wont be sending more of its boys to die for EU wars. Again, Novi and others sentiments in this regard are correct and founded in deep seeded feelings of US citizens.

While I am all for the tanks going to Ukraine, it is over due, and should have happened months ago. I am all for sending A10 warthogs as well, through an EU country, those would be most effective moving forward. Sending the US top technology planes is too much of an ask, and training Ukraines on those planes would take a lot longer than training on tanks or A10's. If we are going to kill Orcs, lets use the best weapons for the job and the easiest weapons to be trained on.

@PolAmKrakow, I think that to some extent the West is obligated to help Ukraine for reasons that were already discussed in this thread. Yes, Ukraine is asking for a lot, but I think they do that, because they realise they're also fighting a proxy war on our behalf. So this is a joint effort.


Yes and this is the problem with the military help being sent to Ukraine - all those "red lines" that have to be crossed, all this wasted time and people killed in the meantime... Ukraine doesn't have as many people as RuSSia does and at some point Ukraine will simply ran out of soldiers... This war can't last God knows how long... I fear that if Western help will be "trickling" like that, Ukraine may bleed out... And they suffer from real war fatigue, unlike us...

And yes, I understand that the US is tired, that Americans have enough after Iraq and Afghanistan, etc. and the EU countries should be doing more, etc. I understand all of that. This is a bad moment for a war for the West and I think this is exactly why RuSSia attacked last year. But you can't wait for good times to do the right thing. Sometimes you have do the right thing during bad times.

If the West doesn't want RuSSia to take over Ukraine then they should make some kind of plan and coordinate. And decide how far they're ready to go with supporting Ukraine and what is the realistic end goal here. So also Ukrainians would know where they're standing and what they can hope for, imho...

@Paulina
You make very good points. WTF is a "red line" anyway? Its imaginary bull$hit if you ask me. Yes, its a proxy war. It is an opportunistic war. The west wants a weakened Russia more than it wants a "whole" Ukraine in my opinion. Ukraine cannot be made whole again with so many dead. Russia will not be recovered for many years after Ukraine is rebuilt in some way.

Pushing these red lines down the road is doing nothing for Ukraine, I agree. Sending the A10's and tanks would be a real difference making combination. F16s and other super high tech wont be more effective. Unlike in the middle east we all know where the enemy is. In the middle of a sand storm or searching for camel riders you need more tech and more range.

The high tech missile stage of this war is winding down, which is what the west wanted, a depleted Russian missile stockpile. Now Putin will do another mobilization in the next month or so, while sending the next 150K men already mobilized to Ukraine. He will keep sending men to die because Russia has the men to send. You are right, eventually Ukraine could bleed out all their men, but I dont see it happening. Crimea is the prize for Ukraine. IF Vlad lost Crimea, he has lost the Russian people. I think everyone knows this. If Crimea falls, then the rest of the offensive in Donbas becomes an afterthought to regular Russians.

It takes fifty cents to end this with a bullet to little Vlads head.

What about Servian volunteers who left their families and friends to die for putain in Ukraine?

Are they idiots?

Do you really see the Ukrainian-Russian war as a "EU war"? Did Putin, at any point, mentioned the EU encroaching on Russia or maybe, just maybe, it was NATO? NATO, in which the US is the main player, and which is by and large a tool of American foreign politics.

The EU (Germany) and Russia would be more than happy to create an alliance of Eurasia "from Lisbon to Vladivostok", pushing the US out of Europe and effectively relegating it to a regional superpower (at most) status, as well as creating an effectively bipolar world of two superpowers (Eurasia and China).

America, however, wants to - for some reason - to upkeep its status of the only global superpower; hence their involvement in this war. So please, PolAm, don't go Novi on me and give me this "EU war" bullcr*p. We're in this sh*t together.

Apart from the 14 Leopard-2 tanks, Poland will also send 60 PT-91...

pap.pl/aktualnosci/news%2C1527154%2Cpremier-morawiecki-polska-dala-przyklad-swoja-decyzja-o-przekazaniu

@GefreiterKania
Putin has said many times now that NATO was not the reason for invading Ukraine. The reason is and always has been to reclaim what he sees as Russian territory. He claimed that the breakup of the USSR was illegal and that Ukraine legally does not even exist. NATO is being used by pundits and propagandists. Picking a fight because of NATO would mean picking a fight with NATO and Putin has said he does not want that because Russia cannot win.

Your idea of a Eurasia superpower is funny though, because the US would simply switch gears and take over Africa or South America and provide all the money and military power there. And the black or Hispanic US population would praise them for it. All those African natural resources to pay for slavery reparations, and all those oil reserves to pay for a new immigration policy.

Is the US the power behind NATO? Absolutely. Does the EU want to get rid of the US or NATO to partner with Russia? LMFAO not a chance in hell and Germany would be ostracized into oblivion for even suggesting such a thing.

I am not going Novi on anything. I am telling you what it is like in the US from a regular person on the street perspective. While most people dont see these things, homelessness and poverty are real problems in the US, and all the billions going to Ukraine is a real issue for a lot of people. I actually live in both places and have a unique perspective. I read and watch the news in both places from all kinds of sources. I love living in Poland, but the idea that the US will always be there shouldn't be held onto because the US doesnt have to. Imagine the US not here, and NATO not existing, and a return to 1991 Soviet domination of the EU states. That is a real possibility, and while Germany may be able to fight off Russia for a short time, it wouldnt last. I admit my hate of Russia can color my comments, but the reality of things if the US is not around could get very problematic for the EU very quickly.

Indeed. All the more reason reason to hope for a Russian defeat that will prevent Russia from future aggressions while the USA are still willing to assist.

Not for Poland it isn't. Because, apart from relegating the US to secondary status, it would also - as a sad side effect - mean the end of Poland as we know it. The beloved Russian prophet, Dugin, has stated clearly that there is no place for Poland between Germany and Russia, so for us the Eurasia form Lisbon to Vladivostok would mean dissolving into eastern or western part of it (or, like during partitions, both).


Africa? China is already there, and they are there to stay. South America? Sure, that's exactly what I meant by regional superpower: still capable of "shocking and awing" the likes of Uruguay or Peru, but no longer a global player.


Not at the moment. Russia ruined all that with this idiotic war. But is the idea unlikely to resurface some time in the future? Who knows?

The USA might have problems with poverty and homelessness, I don't deny, but those problems will only increase if America ceases to be the only global superpower, which would also mean the end of US dollar as a global reserve currency and a disaster for American economy. The amount of Earth's resources consumed by Americans is staggering - if an average Chinese consumed as much as an average American, we would need three additional planets like ours to upkeep this sort of consumption. Unfortunately, we only have one planet. Do you think the Chinese/Russians/Hindu/Brasilians etc. etc. like this disproportionate depleting of Earth's resources? So, the USA better upkeeps its global superpower status or the real poverty/homelesness looms on the horizon for many more Americans.

@GefreiterKania
A lot of what you say makes sense. What makes sense to you and I though may not make sense to people in Detroit, Atlanta, Houston, LA or other places. Most Americans do not think on a global level. Most Europeans do think on a global level as a result of two wars here. There is a big difference in the number of well educated people in the EU compared to US as well. The US doesn't need to be a global power in the eyes of some. Taking South America would be just fine to probably a majority of Americans. Not that I agree, I am just pointing out that most Americans think differently than Europeans.

Interesting fact that many people dont talk about is that most Americans dont even travel outside of their own State, very few Americans by percentage of population even think of traveling to Europe. pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/08/12/most-americans-have-traveled-abroad-although-differences-among-demographic-groups-are-large/ I personally don not consider a trip to Mexico or Canada international travel. Its a short walk or less than an hour drive for millions of Americans.

Anyway, these things color how people look at international affairs or if they even pay attention. My point being is that a growing population of the US will never get to or think of Europe, and the more that happens, the more likely the US is not so quick to act in these wars. Your points on American consumerism is well taken, my country of birth is fat and wasteful in many regards. It is one of the reasons I am in Poland more often than US. The points I present about the US and Europe are not to agree with Novi or anyone else, but to point out that Novi and people like him are not such a small minority that they can be ignored. His crush on Vlad is another matter.

Hm... you have a good point there. Luckily, American elites seem to be well able of thinking on a global level.


OK, sorry - my bad. I misunderstood your original post as advocating some sort of American isolationism and leaving the EU on our own.