Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 5

@Bobko
If you had family die in horrific ways I am sorry for this. Regardless of war, it is a terrible way to die, and it brings the humanity of all of this to the front of the discussion.

Politics aside, this war needs to end. Senseless loss of lives needs to end. While I admit to my hate for Russia based on my Cold War upbringing, in the 21st century we are talking about a war in Europe. Hasn't the world learned enough from the first two?

Because the idea of Russia in the EU and NATO makes the French, British, and Americans sh!t their pants? Russia would shape the EU to be a power against the Chinese and Americans, whether they wanted to or not. Russia in NATO would mean no more invasions of Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Mali, etc.

In the end, Russia in NATO would mean that the US has to f*ck off to make its wars somewhere else in Asia.

Ah for God's sake - Russia in the EU?? And all this rubbish from you about 'power' - the whole ideal behind the EU was based on peaceful alliance between European countries promoting mutual prosperity and goodwill between nations in order that there would never be a World War Three. No ordinary citizen of the EU wants to live the Russian way. The Russian mindset and ideals are the complete antithesis of the way Europeans think.

Who did we learn these murderous ways from, then? Russians are children of Europe, whether you want to admit or not.

First of all, it's an idea that Putinist RuSSians aren't interested in. When I started my discussions with them years ago in my slightly Russophilic naivety I wrote that maybe RuSSia one day will become real democracy and it will join the EU and NATO. Putinists laughed at me. They claimed RuSSia is too big and important for that.

Second of all, RuSSia would have to share common values with the EU and NATO and doesn't and I'm not sure if it every did...

Another thing - in the EU and NATO what smaller countries think and want matters. How megalomaniac and egocentric RuSSia would suffer that?? lol


But we don't want to be "a power against the US". The US is an ally. The US is your obsession, not ours.

This is the heart of things. The US needs Russia and Russia needs the US. The world does not function properly without the cold war and without really different ideas of how countries should operate. As much as The US is Russia's obsession, Russia is the US obsession. Ukraine is the middle man getting spit roasted between two ways of thinking. Z is just the centerpiece taking it from both ends.

The mongols.... they separated you from Europe and left you 300 years behind, you've made up about half that since... and at present seem to be in the mid to late 19th century with the talk of spheres of influence and empire which civilized countries have grown out of....

..that the US would not be the world's cop and that the US army would discover its real role: to protect the United States at home, not to spread "democracy" in Afghanistan.


Name one citizen of the EU that wants to live the American way in Baltimore, Chicago, New Orleans, and on the sidewalks of LA. But that doesn't stop you from being relieved of taking full responsibility for your safety. All of a sudden the US decay and crime are not a problem to Euro parasites.


You are doing great, PAK, but still need my help.
Count the bases and the aircraft carriers on both sides and you will see quickly who is more aggressive. And the mil budgets... US - 800 billion, Russia - 60.

To the US, you are a landing strip and useful idiots.

Oh, please... lol Are you 5-year-olds? Noone forces you to be a murderous, rapist, thieving bunch of orcs - you chose this path yourselves. And don't blame general human vices on Europe, that's stupid.

RuSSia could be better than the West, than the US, if it wanted to. But you don't want to. I guess you don't have it in you to aspire to be better. And since you're not better than the West, but even worse - you have nothing to offer. RuSSia is not an alternative for normal countries. You represent everything we don't want to be acquainted with.

Strive to be better than this and then we can talk.


Not according to RuSSian Putinists I've discussed with, weirdly enough. According to them RuSSia is neither Europe nor Asia, but some kind of special world of it's own lol *rolls eyes*

So it would be OK to bomb Ukraine until implementation of Minsk Accords is reached? ;)

And NATO didn't entered territory by ground forces, but Serbia lost their "motherland" to recent migrants as a result. I do not see any principal difference (other than Russia is reclaiming their own land, given away by Bolsheviks)....

Concerning ethnical or any other "cleanising" - banderites shown their way to go in Odessa, where non-conforming people was burn alive or beaten do death while trying to escape fire from Trade Unions House. This was point of no return. So, until all biological carriers of this ideology is neutralised, one way or another, Russia will not stop.

Do you know what is "natural reservoir of infection"? I do not know exact English term, but it is for example place where plague is slowly circulating in rodents population until some unfortunate people contacted with infected rodent and epidemy breaks out...

The turbo capitalism unleashed on the Russian Federation is responsible for that, an economic system that the US wouldn't tolerate. Its no surprise that the good people rejected the economics encouraged by the American advisors on the drunk Yeltsin which unfortunately led to the rise of Putin. The 90s in Russia were a nightmare that no sane electorate would tolerate.

Poles put up with turbo charged reforms and used it to make a successful economy and built a free market to sit alongside a functioning democracy.

Muscovy did what they always do - stole, murdered and blamed their problems on America. So now they oligarchy and a dictatorship

...


Got ourselves practically to the same level as Poland in terms of wealth per capita, without a single dime of help from the EU, and while paying back the entirety of our debts to all the faggots that pestered us about it?

Poland without the EU would be poorer than Ukraine, and massively poorer than Russia - fact of life.

Russia is 100X more interesting to any investor than Poland. Russia hosted multiples of European auto manufacturers, energy companies, chemical companies, banks, etc compared to Poland. Most Eastern European HQs for most global companies. were in Moscow - not Warsaw.

For Hollywood, the third biggest market globally after China was not the EU - but Russia. From computer games, to music, to film - the picture was the same. Russians are voracious consumers of culture

What this war allows you to do, is pretend that Ukraine is somehow closer and more similar to you than we are. But it's not true.

@Barney, Poland in the 90's wasn't a bed of roses either, to put it mildly. I know, I lived through it as a kid.


Woah, hold your horses RuSSkij cowboy - you went a bit too far in time lol All of this was started by RuSSia - when RuSSian "green men" appeared in Crimea and took it over. Prior to this there were no mass killings, no ethnic cleansing done by Ukrainian government or authorities or even ordinary citizens that would justify a military intervention of any kind. So, you can't compare the two.


Because they were doing ethnic cleansing. Did you miss that tiny detail?


With lots of natural resources to sell though :))) Where RuSSia would be without them?

In the first sentence, you "guess". In the second, you claim. Could you think this stuff over offline and come back with the bottom line?


It's amazing how German money erased all the hurts. Your apologies didn't come with a boatload of cash so you are still on their hate list.

Canada and Australia are more commodity-dependent than Russia, but nobody calls them a "mineral shop with nukes". Norway makes its whole living by selling energy to Europe, somehow people view them as benign Scandinavian trolls that toil for the good life of Europe. Even countries like Qatar and Kuwait are being held up as examples to us Russians.

I understand all these are small, and insignificant countries. But guess what? America is also an energy superpower. It's the reason why their economy is surging ahead, even as Europe's is withering on the vine. Because the benevolent Americans got you off the Russian oil needle, so now your energy costs are 3X of what they were, and all your goods are uncompetitive.

What happened to the Germans in the Western part of today's Poland? I would swear they were cleansed but I could be wrong...


We make energy, arms, and woke morons. For the rest, including illegal drugs, we have China and Mexico.

Better don't ask what happened with Germans on territory of modern day Czech republic. Poles with all their atrocities was almost (only almost) angels, compared to Czechs.


Enlighten us, what sort of cleanising was in Odessa?

I know that. I mean about the Czechs.

Total nonsense - you have been drinking too much of the paint stripper Bobko

Poland's GDP per capita in 2021 was 40 percent higher than Muscovy, and the gap is growing. This was done with no oil, no minerals and no massive wheatfields.

We have also outperformed peers like Hungary who had exactly the same EU help but went down the Muscovy route of sharing it out between Orban's clique.

And I cannot think of a single big company that has had it's East Europe base in Moscow, for the simple reason that they don't want to get their execs locked up or shot, and they don't want to pay bribes to murderers. Some are in Warsaw, a few in Budapest and Prague and a few in Vienna.

I have been plenty of time to Moscow on business, but it tailed off around 2006 when investors realized that there was no route back to democracy and a free market.

Stick to talking about the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, where at least it seems you are in your area of expertise.

@Velund

What do you think about the Nazi preparations for Operation Citadel - *the Soviet reaction* - the result, and how it compares to current events?

Do you think our generals are studying this experience, or do they consider it irrelevant?


The joke is I actually am an amateur in history, but rather the expert in business. Educate yourself about the exposure of Western capital to Russia pre-Feb. 24, 2022.

You reminded us about the money from the EU and I reminded you about the money from selling natural resources - I think it's only fair :)

Btw, I remember that the Putinist RuSSian on whose blog we were discussing had one complaint about Putin - that he doesn't diversify RuSSian economy and relies on those natural resources too much. I remember him claiming "but Putin will do it soon" or "somewhere in the near future". And after some time he would write the same, convinced that something will change... Did it change?


You're an idiot, Novichok.

Btw, in 2021 RuSSia was importing mostly from (brace yourself lol):

oec.world/en/profile/country/rus

"from China ($67.7B), Germany ($31.3B), Belarus ($15.8B), South Korea ($10.4B), and Poland ($8.83B)."

What did RuSSia import from Poland? o_O

@Novichok, you're Polish too :D



(or so you claim lol)


As I wrote already you went too far in time. The fire in Odessa took place in May 2014 - after, not before RuSSia's invasion of Crimea which took place in February 2014. And those tensions and clashes and the subsequent tragedy in Odessa in May were the result of RuSSia's invasion in February. Are people in RuSSia even confused about the order of months in the calendar? lol

Therefore you can't compare NATO bombing of Yugoslavia and RuSSia's invasion in 2014. Ukrainians weren't committing any ethnic cleansing that would justify a military intervention by RuSSia or the UN or anyone else.


What relevance does that have to what we're discussing? Is anyone trying to justify some kind of invasion because of what Poles did to Germans after the World War II? o_O Nope.

You mean the accords that russia violated before the ink was even dry? Those accords?


I'm gald you asked....

twitter.com/DrAnnaPirates/status/1653371089773293584


But given that social stratification is far, far, FAAARRRR higher in russian than in Poland that just means a few rich people while the vast majority of people live in garbage...

Givent the resources that russia has wiser use of them would give the vast majority of russians living standards at German or higher levels but that's not what russians want, they won't to fight and steal from each other....

Everything bad that happened in russia in the 1990s was the doing of russians themselves.... russians are bad at society and always regress to tyranny and oppression (which suits the infantile nature of most russians).

I asked about classification of this act of cleanising, not about chronology.

I already noted referendums that take place in Crimea well before 2014, and was ignored by nationalistic Rada in Kiev, so we can discuss about chronology later.

Why is chronology so unimportant to you?

@Velund, there was no "act of cleansing" in Odessa. The events in Odessa in May of 2014 are described as "clashes between rival groups of protestors" in Wikipedia and the fire that resulted from that violence was a single event. A tragedy, but it didn't happen again even though Odessa is still under the Ukrainian control. There was no organised or even random cases of ethnic cleansing in Ukraine in 2014 after the RuSSian invasion (that I'm aware of) and there were defenitely no such cases before the invasion.


But it's the chronology that matters here! You compared the RuSSian invasion in 2014 to the bombing of Yugoslavia by NATO in 1999, yes? Well, NATO bombing was done to stop ethnic cleansing that was happening. While RuSSia invaded Ukraine in 2014 because it didn't like it's new government and not because Ukrainian speakers were committing ethnic cleansing on RuSSian speakers in Ukraine.


Because he knows RuSSia's justification for invading Ukraine in 2014 is bullsh1t :)

Spot on!!!

So, about 14000 dead in Donbass from AFU and "national batallions" fire between 2014 and 2022 is "nothing important" for you?

Maybe we also should name what happened in Kosovo "clashes between rival groups"?