Poland`s aid to Ukraine if Russia invades - part 9

By no 'indications'. It seems that Germany is deliberately undermining international efforts.


Lord Cameron? Head and shoulders above any politician over there. And not given to leaking secrets to the enemy or making weak excuses about it.


Were obviously deliberate. Why else would a military meeting involving generals and discussing Ukraine's capabilities and other countries' involvement in the conflict happen on WebEx?

It's obvious why. So r*ssia could listen in.

And of course there are nice and good Russians out there. I have interacted with several Russian escorts and strippers and they all very friendly and reasonable

Its the warmongering Russian nationalists that are the problem, they don't respect the reality of allowing former East European states to decide there own future

Was it a long time ago?, because I think Bobko's mother and Aunties have retired.

I don't believe that....they are just this mess, THAT is hard to believe, but no ill will!

Somehow ironic....the world wanted an anti-militarist Germany, they got it...that's how it looks like!

It will be difficult and time consuming to turn it around. And for that we will have to build on all that "dreadful baggage", Jon....there is no other way!

By doing more than other countries to help?


We are talking about the same guy who foolishly caused the Brexit disaster and then immediately run off and left others to pick up the pieces? Again, if this was a serious diplomatic row, the British would not be sending the one man who makes Scholz look like a strong leader. Well,at least they did not send Johnson... .

What exactly is Germany sending currently? Some more helmets and copies of Mein Kampf for the Azov battalion?


By allowing the public a free vote on a major decision? Outrageous! Yes we know you krauts are quite anti-democratic despite your grandiose beliefs, I note the recent laws/proposals to freeze bank accounts and restrict travel to those that dare to donate to AfD

You Brits would scream the loudest if Gemany returns to its roots and would build an army worthy of our predecessors.....but now you are mocking us for being weak and inept, lacking any militarist spirit!

Could you please decide....

We don't have the numbers for this week yet. Last week it was:

- 10 Vector UAVs
- 22 anti-drone sensors and jammers
- 4 WiSENT 1 MC mine clearing tanks
- 4 border protection vehicles
- 3 mobile, remote controlled and protected demining equipment
- 250 tool kits with blasting material
- 14,000 shells 155mm artillery ammunition
- 40mm ammunition for grenade launchers
- 147 night vision goggles
- 12 satellite communication terminals (Satcube)


If that was only it. He failed to properly challenge the Brexiteer lies, negotiated poorly in Bruessels and made things worse with his terrible communication, (back then I lived in the UK and the contrast in coverage was really severe) and so on. Even if you are a Brexiteer, you can not really give Cameron credit for probably the greatest action of British self-harm in its' history because he did not want this to happen.

It also caused great harm to Ukraine btw, because the UK was as a consequence so absorbed with its' problems that it did little to assist the country. Merkel only went to Minsk because neither Obama nor thr British PM - whose countries had once guaranteed Ukraine's borders - could be bothered.

By leaking secrets to r*SSia.


However you try to negatively frame it, since it goes against your country's former plans for a federal Europe, it is so far a success and was the will of the people. Hopefully other European countries will follow suit. And yes, Lord Cameron is a very hard hitting statesman. Unlike Scholtz and the leakers around him. And if it weren't for Boris Johnson, there would be a e*SSian flag over Kiyiv.


They're certainly not sending the missiles that would be most effective against their r*SSin chums.

Of course they still harbour fantasies about cheap r*SSian oil. And hey, they could always split Poland between them again.


If Germany wish to participate in the free world's military activities, they can ditch the unpleasant iconography like the word 'luftwaffe' and have their units commanded by others. There won't be a third chance.

Do you seriously, even for one second, think that Russia did not know that French and British military personnel perform the targeting work for Ukrainian missiles?

This is so much of a non-brainer, that the reaction to this news in Russia has been in fact more muted than it has been in the West.

In the West it seems to be a problem, only because certain Western governments have been embarrassed before their populations. Scholz's crime is not so much that he publicly stated what was secret information, but that he's trying to score "serious person" points at the expense of Micron and Sunak.

Whether in Britain, or in France, the population is not in support of putting their soldiers on the ground in Ukraine. In both Britain and France, the population is opposed to the government taking any steps that may lead to potential later involvement. Yesterday, when Scholz reiterated that German soldiers will never be sent to Ukraine, the words were met with long applause. Again - what Scholz did is first and foremost embarrassing to those other two, and not actually damaging to security.

Look at the backlash against Macron in France. Look at how Labor is capitalizing on both Ukraine and Israel, to hammer the Tories on foreign policy.

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It is very likely that in the meantime, Ukrainians are doing it themselves without foreign help.

Do you seriously, even for one second[/i], think that it's acceptable for Germany not only to leak this but to say (twice, once by their general' and once by Scholtz) that Germany isn't a 'participant' in the war but others are?

And the most staggering thing of all was that their 'general' was recorded talking about sending military aid to Ukraine in a way that "[i]won't change the course of the hostilities".

It's clear that they value their relationship with their former trading partner more than they value Ukrainian independence.


Not embarrassing at all, though you would of course say that as a r*SSian. After all, Germany is if not showing itself to be r*SSia's actual ally, then at least more sympathetic to r*SSia than the free world is.

That is not what Scholz said.

He said clearly, that the only way the Taurus could be used by Ukraine, is if German soldiers were involved. That this was precisely how Britain and France handled the Storm Shadow and SCALP transfers. That Germany could not copy this approach, because of differences in tradition, but also in Constitution. The Basic Law (Grundgesetz), forbids Germany from doing these things.

So he very obviously did throw the Brits and the French under the bus... but I'm just taking issue with Jon's very dramatic reaction to it. No actual secrets were revealed, and certainly not something Russia didn't already know.

@jon357


By sending more aid to Ukraine than any other European country (and by hosting the most Ukrainian refugees). If you are unhappy about Germany's position as the leader, you should convince your own government to do more.


It really is not, as me and (with more effort and sources) B.B. have pointed out to you numerous times by now.


There are actually numerous units that have shared command with other countries, while they are in return commanded by Germans.


Honestly, that is something so uniquely British. Being obsessed with WWII while the rest of Western Europe has moved on. ;) Again, nothing "unpleasant" about it. You would not ask us to invent another word for "army" or "fleet".

He did leak operational secrets after all.

Nobody is worried about that however his behaviour does raise concerns about wherever else he's doing and what he might try to do. After all, in international relations, Germany has a consistent history of making the wrong decisions.


It was a dramatic leak.

And makes you wonder how many other moles r*SSia has writhing the German military and their limp excuse for a government.

Perhaps, however, Scholz meant that German help would only be needed at the beginning, until the Ukrainians learned how to operate these missiles themselves.

A pretty strong indictment by someone from a country who since 1945 caused the Suez Crisis, backed the Coup in Iran that brought the Shah back, backed and participated in the illegal war against Iraq, made an absolute mess in Libya, wanted to convince Gorbachev to keep his troops in Eastern Europe, convinced the Ukrainians to surrender their nukes and failed to properly support them afterwards. Do you know why large parts of the Middle East, Asia and Africa are sympathic towards Russia. Because they remember how many problems the British caused to them.

Admittedly Germany lacked the influence to screw up in a similar manner for most of its' post-1945 history but aside from being too naive towards Putin we were doing pretty good.

Have you listened to the actual leak of the WebEx call? The Air Force general says that if they can't figure out how to work through the manufacturers, the only real option left would be for him to drive back and forth between Germany and Ukraine in a civilian car delivering the targeting information.

Clearly, this means it's not a matter of Mykola taking some GPS coordinates from Google Maps, opening up a little hatch on the side of the Taurus, dialing it all in - e basta.

Neither you nor me have experience in launching cruise missiles, so I'm inclined to believe the words of your Air Force generals over whatever me and you may reason about how they work.

What's more, it seems the French and British also could not resolve this issue.

Your historical whataboutery neither works nor is relevant, and you'll notice I've not mentioned yet what your country were doing as fast as they could until others had to stop them by force. Some people are less well-suited to others than to try whaboutery. Especially over the Suez Canal. Odd too you mention the Shah of Persia too, especially the world would be a better place were his family still in power. Nor was the liberation of Iraq from the Ba'athists in any way 'illegal'. Regarding Libya, you obviously know little about the lives saved by foreign intervention.

What is important here is that a military conference was held using insecure comms, either through sheer incompetence or bu design, and the 'general' in the recording suggested supplying arms at such a ridiculously slow rate that they "won't change the course of the hostilities".

I suspect many in the German government wish they were still able to trade with r*SSia and would be quite pleased if Ukraine lost.

As I was reading your post I knew you would eventually ask this simple question.
The answer: The cowards with no skin in this game who can't admit that this stupid war made no sense from the beginning.
See PF Russia-haters who enjoy Russians being killed even if for every Russian ten Ukrainians die as well. Or whatever that ratio is...

Two traits separate men from boys: the ability to admit they were wrong and that they lost.


Faggots should be decorated with pride colors to help Russian sharpshooters better ID targets.

For a militarist spirit needed to build and operate an army worthy of that name you need pride! Foremost pride of your country's military achievements and traditions! Pride in being a soldier!!!

There is no way around it! In Germany it had been tried to build something without all this...without national patriotism.."peace at all costs"..."soldiers are murderers"..."never again" etc....you just see the outcome.

So, quite the contrary....we not only need to rebuild our pride in our achievements, and soldiers, but also in our iconography and names! People need the historical connection and role models.

Everything else is a leftist illusion....there is no "woke" army and never will be, humans just don't work that way. A functional army needs to be militarist, and that needs an environment around it to flourish, at least in parts equally militarist!

You would hate that Germany!

Not in that thought; better to have pride in something that didn't take part in the nera destruction of Poland.


No, however of course Germany is very welcome to assist others under their command.

That's the thing....military achievements are independent from politics!

You can still have a great army with brave, heroic soldiers led by strategical geniuses and still lose because of inept politics...

That's the walk on a razors edge Germany will have to learn should Europe ever be able to become militarily independent.

I have been saying this again and again...

I want Germany as strong as it was in 1939 minus Hitler. When you finally get there, tell the US warmongers to GTFO, shake hands with Russia, repair the pipe, and make Germany great again.

I will help you to deport the Muslim scum.

I dunno if a proud Germany would automatically be a friend of Russia....it didn't work that way with Hitler and Stalin after all!

If a proud Germany sees Ukraine as part of "our" Europe it would definitely clash with Moscow's claiming....just saying....

And the pipes, running through so many countries, would probably not survive either....my guess!

You can, however when politicians have made disastrous decisions twice in a relatively short period, you will understand the general lack of trust about them being in a position to make a third.

The federalist ambitions of the current lot suggest that German politicians have not learnt.

If Americans can be friends with the Soviets in 1945, Germany can be in 2024 since there are no conflicts between you and Russia.

The current one has American DNA and British excrement all over it.

Rule one: Never trust British kanalia...

Oh....I know that, Jon! There is barely a German who don't understands that.

But I wish for our allies to understand that too....you can't mock a Germany for acting as it is in all things military and on the other hand always raise a warning finger not to be to proud, to nationalist, to militarist etc.

A woke Wehrmacht is not possible!

So better stop judging and/or mocking us for our military problems and weaknesses....you can't get it both ways.

We have a centuries long history of friendship, blood ties, cultural, and institutional links. Germans never rose so high in other countries, as they did in Russia. German culture is not appreciated anywhere more than in Russia - whether it is literature, philosophy, or art.

Both are large nations, that frequently get annoyed by their smaller neighbors hysterical behavior. That alone, should help us see eye to eye.

Most importantly - neither country is trapped in a role of benefactor/beneficiary vis a vis the other. This is what fundamentally poisons German relations with Eastern Europe - I feel. The constant "give, give, give", which is then periodically substituted with "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you".

P.S. The website of the embassy of Germany in Russia states that more people study German in Russia, than in any other country in the world.

That is what people always do. It is the nature of things.

The days of a militaristic Prussia are as dead as Frederick the Great now. Better to concentrate on civil defence and taking part in operations under international control.

Hard to know what you mean by 'woke' military.